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Who killed Aleksandr Litvinenko?
sam 1 November, 2007, 07:51 This is the way I see this Plot The Victem Litvinenko - Ex FSB and former associate of Berezovsky.Later critic of Kremlin and most likely agent of the MI6.How else do you get a british passport in under one year? Suspects Kremlin - Very unlikely as victem was a nobody.Killing him makes more political problems then when he is alive. FSB - very possible after all he is a traitor and would not be suprised if he did not cost the lifes FSB agents in the west. Berezovsky - very possible knew too many secrets and cannt keep mouth shout.Can also blaim the kremlin as a bonus. MI6 - Very possible have to pay him for doing nothing,talks too much may even know too much about MI6 if he was a double agent from the start. The fact is we will never know for sure.Especially since a lot of the evidence is hidden. The murder weapon Polonium 210 - i cannt see it as prove of who did it.Do not forget after fall of the USSR whole A bombs went missing and it does not rot.Bet still a lot of it is all over the world.It is also used in the textile industry and generators. But this is something i can tell you who ever used it wanted it to be traced back to eastern europe after all there are better ways to kill someone without a red hot trail.And yet be safe.You can check it polonium 210 is harmless unless ingested.as it does not penetrate the skin.
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Sevodnya_Net 1 November, 2007, 13:03 A plot that would do credit to the best thriller writer! One thing is almost certain: whoever the killer was, they badly botched it. I'm convinced a comparatively quick death was planned for Mr Litvinenko - unfortunately for the culprits the dose of Polonium-210 was under-administered, not only causing a slow lingering death, but also giving the authorities time to diagnose the cause. Don't forget it took several weeks to do this. Crucially also, of course, it meant that the investigating authorities now had a trail to follow which otherwise would have gone undetected. And guess what? The trail they uncovered matched the movements of the suspects. Oh dear. Slapped wrists and worse back in Moscow. Litvinenko himself was an interesting character - did he really have incriminating secrets or was he a nutcase? Suspiciously, President Putin rather dramatically changed his tune on Litvinenko's embarrassment factor when his death was announced. He suddenly became "insignificant", "unimportant" and yet he was important enough to warrant someone killing him. The conspiracy theory that it was framed to look like an FSB killing doesn't really hold water. Plainly the whole thing, as I say above, was meant to look like natural causes, with accidental damning incrimination. So I think the rather boring conclusion I have to come to is that the person responsible is the one currently wanted for the murder by the British authorities. The story in the British press that Litvinenko was an MI6 agent are most probably untrue - MI6 operates abroad - however it's most likely that there was some involvement with the British security services. I don't think they'd have been doing their job properly if there hadn't been some approach. Regardless of this the facts are he was murdered by someone who came from Russia and it is indeed disappointing that the Russian authorities have not only refused to co-operate with extradition requests but have also sought to confuse the issue with their own "investigation" which has largely consisted of public accusations against the usual suspects wheeled out whenever something nasty happens. I don't fully understand why the evidence accumulated by the London authorities hasn't been released to their Russian counterparts. Apart from anything else it would be one excuse less for the latter to drag their heels. Sadly, by the time there is any movement on this the suspect may be beyond reach as either a Duma representative, or dead .
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Sevodnya_Net 1 November, 2007, 15:14 And more predictable nonsense from the chief suspect at the latest news conference. For an innocent party he seems to have an awful lot to say. If the evidence is as dodgy as he claims then he should have no qualms about coming to London where all this would come out in a court of law, at great embarrassment to Britain, which presumably he would greatly enjoy. It is much easier to spout conspiracy theories from the safe haven of Moscow.
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Aardvark 1 November, 2007, 16:47 I normally enjoy comments by Comrade Sevodnya_Net but in this case I beg to differ. - why use such an exotic weapon as Polonuim 210 if the `a comparatively quick death was planned`? Surely, it points at planned eventual discovery and the whole media circus to follow - whoever was interested in that. - Litvinenko's secrets? makes me think of David Shayler's `secrets` - he is full of them. The problem is, nobody wants to hear - expect for (I`m guessing here) the Russians, Chinese and assorted conspiracy theories affectionados the world over - what would be Lugovoy's motives? from what the press is telling me he is rich and has friends in all sorts of places in Russia.not your usual suspect, is he? why force or frame him if some mafia hitman could do the job? Lugovoy always sounds truly indignant - must say he convinced me at least on that. with respect, yours truly Aardvark
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Sevodnya_Net 1 November, 2007, 19:04 Aardvark, you flatter me :-) I'm a simple soul and very boring, that's why I'm backing the obvious answer to the question. Beleve me Polonium 210 does cause a comparatively rapid death if used in the "correct" amount. I don't comment on Litvinenko's allegations but, as I say, even if he's a Shayler-style nutcase it doesn't excuse his murder. Not that the Russians at home got a chance to read most of them as his book was banned (tho maybe that was on literary grounds, it's a pretty awful piece of writing.) Lugovoy's motives? Revenge, obviously. Maybe not personal but corporate. The FSB and its predecessors have a history of such killings. I don't necessarily say that it was official FSB (tho' guess which country's parliament had recently passed a law allowing execution abroad of foreign "traitors"!), but possibly a rogue element. And of course it wasn't Lugovoy who personally poured the tea, but a professional hitman. Not very professional, alas. Perhaps Andrei should have taken the teapot himself and done it properly :-) Comrade S_N
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MihalMihalich 1 November, 2007, 19:12 Dear Ladies & Gentlemen Well British authorities would probably know better… they say Lugovoy is their suspect. They demand him & they also know very well that RF cannot extradite Russian citizens, because it’s written into constitution. If they really want to catch a bad guy, they must pursue him, prove his guilt & put him in jail. But they still didn't present any proof. So we have a guy who worked as convoy/security guard - not a spy. He fled Russia as one million others looking for better life abroad, and he asked for political asylum, and claimed he was a spy, others would claim asylum because they are Jewish, Jehovah witnesses living in fear for their lives to qualify as a refugee. k? okay. Its tragic, but he died from polonium 210 poisoning. As I remember in autopsy they found some sort of anti-radiation capsule in his body and concluded that he knew radioactive materials poisoned him, before he was in hospital. (Ask about antiradiation capsules in a nearby pharmacy) And he was in hospital how long? Apparently not long enough to write down or dictate final words. Litvenenko’s "friend" typed “his” last words in translation in English. Very credible. Best Regards
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Corleona 1 November, 2007, 20:08 Brits are famous for poisoning anyway. That sort of murder usually goes undiscovered and it's "clean" and "hygienic". Not to mention the other advantages such as - difficult to trace or diagnose. I find all this pretty obvious, don't you all?
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Sam 2 November, 2007, 06:52 Sorry Corleona but I dont recall Brits as being well known poisoners.The Former KGB is better known for this.Remember Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov who was killed by poison dart filled with ricin and fired from an umbrella in London in 1978. Thats why I for one think the weapon of choice was intensionally made very tracable.30 years ago you make something so clean as build an umbrella now you serve radioactive poison into a tea cup for everyone to follow.Does not sound right. Some stated that MI6 does not operate internally.Yes legally and yes as if they will tell you if they do it.Bet they do if they need to. Yes its true that the FSB has been given a legal right to terminate any one that is a sucrity risk to the Russia Feberation by their duma and that does not apply only to their nationals or "traitors" as someone refered to them.As horrific as it is, at least they are honest about it.As if CIA,Mossad MI6 et al are not popping people arround. I would like to take this point to say sorry for any typos as i type fast and do not waste time reading back.Its just that some people think my "Style" of English if there was one makes me Klingon :)
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DaniYah 2 November, 2007, 14:05 The Associated Press has picked up the tip that an entity more famous for nuclear proliferation is responsible for the Polonium contamination of Europe that resulted in the death of Alexandr Litvinenko. [part of this post has been removed]
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Michael 3 November, 2007, 01:17 I think if it was the guy who the Brit gov said did it(i forget his name) but if it was him he wouldn't have done it for money as he's already a wealthy guy with his own security company etc. I'm sure he's capable of doing it but I doubt he would have done it himself unless it was personal. Litvenenko was a known mouthpiece that was always trying to make wild accusations in the press at any oportunity against lots of people and he was not actually that well off which leads me to conclude that he tried to extort money from someone with money and in a position of power. Most Russian kids who are half clever want to work as a civil servant or government job and not the private sector as they know full well that its a poor paid job but with a licence for lucrative corruption to earn big money. So my punt is that it was just a wealthy person in power who wanted him dead to keep his mouth shut. It's all too james Bondy and glamourous to believe the orders came from Putin. It would be ridiculous and the kill would have been far more profesional without any smoking gun or trail as this case was.
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DaniYah 3 November, 2007, 13:09 Has anyone even thought how the polonium was obtained? Many scientists confirmed that Polonium is easily manufactured from bismuth, a common earth metal. For whatever reason the "Western" press decided to promote that it was obtained from uranium enrichment alone. In addition, I quote a AP article by Robert Burns, that the US sought radiological assassination weapons for civilian targets as early as 1945. It is highly likely that, if not directly ordered by those who would benefit from such a ruckus, it could have been carried out on a rendezvous by a bored agent at the agency.
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Sevodnya_Net 3 November, 2007, 16:08 Well, I for one don't think Putin ordered any killing. But I think that if it turns out to be the FSB then he must take responsibility for failing to control this monster. Evidence which suggests it wasn't simply a private vendetta include the fact that Polonium 210 is forbiddingly expensive and difficult to get hold of for all but the most powerful of organisations. And the so-called "smoking gun" probably was never intended to be found - polonium is more or less undetectable unless you know what you are looking for. The killers must have reckoned on this or they would not have been so stupid as to incriminate themselves in this way. We may think the whole thing is difficult to believe, but it happened, and similar killings have happened before.
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Sevodnya_Net 3 November, 2007, 23:51 DaniYah, To obtain polonium in the required quantity from bismuth requires a particle accelerator, otherwise a nuclear reactor is needed to obtain it from uranium. As far as I know scientists have not ruled out either method as the source, but whichever way, it is not a simple process at all. And I believe that the US gets its polonium from guess where - Russia. Add that to the fact that the polonium traces led between Moscow and London (from London to Moscow only if you believe Mr Lugovoy) so I'm not sure we can lay the blame for this one on the US. Surely both Lugovoy AND London can't both be wrong (can they??) Of course lots of countries have experimented with all sorts of nasty chemical weapons.
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DaniYah 5 November, 2007, 04:52 Sevodnya_Net, perhaps you have confused chemical weapons with radiological ones. How did you find that the US gets their Polonium from Russia? Did they tell this to you personally or did you receive it from the mainstream Western media? Both are losing their much of their credibility these days, you know. Putting bismuth through a particle accelerator is one way to obtain Polonium, but there exists a much simpler and cheaper alternative- irradiation. Exposing Bismuth to high radiation beams produces Polonium in very large amounts very fast. I differ with "theories" that focus on Berezovsky's involvement. Even if Berezovsky did help to target Litvinenko, where could Berezovsky get his shiny irradiating equipment? Where would he keep it? London is also under wraps, and have shown that they are willing to play scapegoat for another party. (This is seen in the bizarre admission by the chief of Mi-6 Sir John Scarlett that he provided Litvinenko a handsome salary. This is a fib, as Litvinenko was known to be desperately peddling worthless "Kremlin" "intelligence" to the media (after being rejected by British intel experts) while taking loans from his friends in order to support his family before his death.) Litvinenko was in position to accept an offer he could not refuse: a limp of funds from a "hungry" intelligence operative in secret-prison ravaged Europe. And so Litvinenko became the red (radioactive) fox that led the hunting party (media, public opinion, international spats) all the while the actual culprits get away. Suprisingly, little attention has been paid to the fact that Mario Scaramella, a nuclear weapons expert, the first to meet Litvinenko that day (wasn't he?), was the only other person to have amounts of Polonium in his body comparable to Litvineko's (half, yet still well above the lethal dose.) Currently, Mr. Scaramella is serving time in an Italian prison for smuggling of illegal third party nuclear and other weapons. Interestingly, Scaramella worked extensively with the US intelligence community just days before, a career highlighted by his meeting with them in the World Trade Center in November 2000 for remote global satellite monitoring and locating of nuclear and radiological materials. I believe you also mentioned in this forum that it took nearly 2 weeks to discover that Polonium was poisoning Litvinenko. But, a simple tool available at any secondary or high school science lab (you can also make one at home) called a Geiger counter was all that was needed to pick up an alpha particle reading. But, this tool was not available to the public health or security officials until Litvinenko's death was publicly announced (at which time the areas he visited were cordoned off.) It does appear quite clear that the British were highly confused as to what they should have been looking for. And the whole time, somebody, somebody, was watching from the skies. More scientific discussion must be applied to this topic. Thanks for your response. By the way, did you read the AP article?
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Sevodnya_Net 5 November, 2007, 08:58 Daniyah - I may be wrong, but I believe that irradiating bismuth would not produce polonium in the quantities required - or used - in this case. It's all very well now to say use a Geiger counter, but as I said before that type of radiation wasn't suspected. People were thinking of gamma rays - sounds daft now but at the time people didn't know what to think. I'm sticking with the Lugovoy theory as at least that's backed up by criminal evidence. I haven't read the AP article - yet. I will idc.
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John 5 November, 2007, 13:55 I do not believe that Putin ordered the “hit” he had no reason to any Intel Litvinenko had was old and redundant he was not a threat to Russia security. And anyway I’m sure there are professionals within Russia who can carry out these tasks without mucking it up. MI6 had no reason to kill him why go through the trouble of fast tracking citizenship. There’s no way Britain would make him privy to any sensitive Intel. If he was employed by MI6 the only useful thing he could do is to perhaps “turn” current disgruntled FSB agents with more up to date information. Lugovoy the prime suspect could have done it or he may just be someone’s “patsy” we will never know maybe he should throw down the gauntlet and fly to London to clear his name remember the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty from what ive seen and read lately there are a few grey areas which may be enough to clear him he would then return to Russia a national hero. I accept that Russia will not extradite because of the constitution and have no problem with this position. Given the fact that we will not extradite our citizens to Russia. This botched murder has done untold damage to Russia’s international standing and Putin personally. Russia is now viewed with suspicion. So who gains, not Russia or Britain , I think scaramella needs to be looked into more deeply and who he may be linked with maybe the organiser is yet to be found.
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DaniYah 6 November, 2007, 01:33 Sevodnya_Net, Geologists who study the presence and characteristics of radioactivity in the earth often have access to neutron power sources, which can be used to create significant amounts of Polonium, well over the amount used to kill Litvinenko. Bismuth irradiation using this method does not require a "traditional" accelerator or reactor. Also, the Geiger counter is used to detect all types of radiation, including alpha radiation. So, if the authorities had been looking for gamma radiation, they would have detected the alpha radiation as well.
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DaniYah 6 November, 2007, 01:41 I meant to say, "Geiger counters are used to detect all types of radiation, including gamma radiation." (".Geiger detectors are still favored as general purpose alpha/beta/gamma portable contamination and dose rate instruments, due to their low cost and robustness" -wikipedia)
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fred 6 November, 2007, 12:21 [part of the post has been removed] sevodnya : what "Evidences" are you talking about ? i don't recall my law degree , a simple idea from investigator's brain can be considered as an evidence ??? and if there is evidences , why the UK's police did not communicate investigations results to theirs russians counterpart ???
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Sevodnya_Net 6 November, 2007, 13:54 Fred, There is a dossier of criminal evidence prepared by the Crown Prosecution Service which was deemed convincing enough for Britain to press for Mr Lugovoy's extradition. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know the ins and outs of whether it would be appropriate to release this to the Russians as a supporting clause for the extradition request. I guess some of it must have been, I don't know. Since the request has been rejected with little prospect, it would seem, of that decision being changed, it then becomes a question of whether Britain would want to take up Russia's offer of proceding with a trial in Moscow. As I said before, I don't know if there is any reason in theory why that couldn't happen in future, other than - 1. the CPS dossier can't be released for some reason (OK, some will say it's all a load of rubbish) 2. Lugovoy becomes "unavaliable" for prosecution for one reason or another 3. Some other legal reason I don't know about
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