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Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?
Norman 6 May, 2008, 17:50 The special citizenship status for Russians in Latvia is RACISM, including who they could and could not marry ( at one time). The Baltic nations should not punish today's Russians for the crimes of the old Soviet Union.
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Anton 8 May, 2008, 06:25 I agree with Norman, what is happening in the Baltic. To insult someone who sacrifices there life for the freedom(s) of a nation(s) is obviously provocative, no doubt about that. By not giving the Russians who live in the Baltic states passports, it creates problems, obviously shown by the riots last year. If this continues even more riots and violence will rise and eventually reach catastrophic proportions. This is shameful behavior, I believe the European community should be ashamed of what is happening in its 'civilized' nations. Its either dialogue for a settlement, or war.
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Regular_John 8 May, 2008, 14:50 Please forgive me if iam wrong but it is my understanding that you have to pass a language examination to become an Estonian citizen and this applies to ethnic Russians who were born in Estonia if this is correct then this is blatant racism anyone born in a country must be given citizenship automatically otherwise they are left stateless which is unacceptable in a modern civilisation this does not happen in other EU countries. Members who do not conduct themselves in accordance with EU rules or values should be expelled.
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john 9 May, 2008, 07:03 The Baltic States are a shame for Europe, in particular the EU. They are the bastion of fascism and racism under the protection of the EU and Nato. I am surprised that the Russian government still did not charge the Balts for human rights abuse in international courts.
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Sevodnya_Net 9 May, 2008, 07:50 In Britain you can't pass a citizenship exam without knowledge of English, so it isn't just the Baltic states. I'm all in favour of relaxed citizenship rules but what country dishes out citizenship "automatically"? It would be nice if someone who knows about Latvia could tell us the facts about that country in the way marzipan6 has done for Estonia, because the news stories coming out of there seem rather one-sided to me. I am, for example, unconvinced about the "pigman" story's relevance to the issue.
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Wayne 9 May, 2008, 11:20 I have seen this myself while working in Latvia .My ex-wifes mother is an Alien citezen of Latvia she lived their most of her life and her children where born their .
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Marzipan6 9 May, 2008, 14:49 I have commented in detail on many of the points of the preceding posts in the thread, “Does NATO Make the World More Secure”. Some of those misapprehensions are so deeply embedded in Russian psychology and are so ceaselessly and strongly re-enforced by past, present (and probably future) Russian propaganda, that presenting facts which show those views to be wrong have very little effect. Moscow’s myths aren’t overthrown by the facts; rather, it is the facts that are overthrown by the myths. However, I’m happy to present the facts yet again for those to whom they may be important. TO NORMAN: Making a difference on the basis of race or ethnicity certainly is racism. But defining a person’s civic status on the basis of citizenship and not ethnicity is not racism. Every country on earth does that much, even Russia. In general, the Baltics (with the exception of Lithuania which, for reasons I have explained previously, has an even more liberal policy) grant automatic citizenship to people of all ethnicities and their descendants who were citizens in the free Baltic countries prior to 1940. They also offer automatic citizenship to those born there after the restoration of Baltic freedom in 1991 if even one parent is a citizen, again regardless of ethnicity. And they offer citizenship by naturalization to all those who meet a residency requirement and who show a commitment to the country and an ability to function in it by choosing to learn its language and passing a simple history and immigration law test, again quite regardless of ethnicity. But they do not offer automatic citizenship to those foreigners, whether Russians or others, who arrived in their territory illegally during the time of their occupation. If the German occupation of Russia had lasted long enough for hundreds of thousands of German civilians to have illegally colonized Russia, and if those people later demanded Russian citizenship as of right while still refusing to integrate with Russia or even to learn the Russian language, I doubt very much if Moscow would have yielded to their unreasonable demands, and I also doubt whether Norman would have criticized Moscow for it. And what in the world is this nonsense he writes about some barrier to marriage??? There are a very large number of intermarriages in the Baltics from the time of the occupation. What you imply is truly a nonsense. TO ANTON: As far as Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians were concerned, Red Army soldiers sacrificed their lives not to bring even the merest whiff of freedom to their lands, but to re-establish Stalin’s bloody and horrific rape of their countries – a rape that was already in full swing in 1940-41, and had been interrupted in 1941 only by the Nazis’ own atrocities. The Soviet re-occupation and oppression of the Baltics lasted until 1991. Throughout those nearly 50 years of occupation, it was the Red Army, together with other organs of Soviet oppression, that maintained Baltic slavery by force of arms and terror. And right up to the very end, in 1991, it was the Red Army that was still threatening and in fact killing Baltic citizens on their streets. None of that deserves a particularly big thank-you. TO REGULAR_JOHN: Those who were born to non-citizens remain non-citizens until they apply for, and are granted, citizenship. Those who were born after the end of Moscow’s occupation who have even one parent as a citizen, receive automatic citizenship. Your misapprehension probably arises from an assumption that the Baltics were a legitimate and willing part of the Soviet Union, like, say, Belarus. They were not. They were independent countries like Denmark, the Netherlands or Belgium which were occupied entirely illegally land entirely against their will in WW2. In the case of the Baltics, that occupation see-sawed from Russian to German to Russian occupation again, and lasted until 1991. At no stage did the Baltics see themselves as Soviet Republics then, and they certainly don’t think of themselves as “former Soviet Republics” today. Instead, their self-awareness was that of sovereign and independent countries that had been under illegal occupation since 1940. But during the Soviet years and beyond, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were quite unlike other Soviet territories. Nor was their occupation recognised as legitimate by much of the world over those decades. Fully accredited free Baltic ambassadors, for example, continued to function in Washington throughout the period of occupation. Do-colonization is a difficult process, John, because it involves balancing the rights and expectations of those countries’ own citizens on the one hand, and their one-time colonists on the other. Russia and its apologists choose to recognise no rights of those countries’ existing citizens, and expect everyone to change everything to meet the demands and expectations of the newcomers. While the Baltics are not trying to expel those people but are trying very hard to actually integrate them into their lands, the fact remains that Russia itself is only a very short distance away, and if some of the newcomers should wish to re-join the families and relatives in Russia, no one is forbidding them to do so. In fact, Putin even invited them to come, but few were interested, as their lives are better in the Baltics. In a radio interview about 6 months or so ago, Putin also pointed out that Russians living abroad should learn the language of their country of residence. Pity you didn’t hear or read about that interview.
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Sevodnya_Net 9 May, 2008, 17:44 Can someone who is pleading the case for mistreatment of Russian citizens in the Baltic states actually present some evidence for it? That's not a rhetorical question but a genuine one. For example perhaps Wayne could elaborate on his comment? I keep seeing words like "fascist" and "intolerance" bandied about - perhaps with good reason, but I've not heard or seen a shred of evidence in support of it. I'm not saying there isn't any - but it would make a refreshing change from the usual, and then those of us who know less about the situation could make more informed judgments. For example, I was unaware that the Estonia automatically grants citizenship to non-Estoniands- as well it might on reflection.
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john 9 May, 2008, 17:51 Marzipan6, you embarrass civilization in Europe by your endorsement of fascism and racism in the Baltic States. Now these countries are pets of the US. But even in the US racisms and fascism is not welcomed. Sooner or later the EU and Nato will have to take a stand and expel that Baltic embarrassment from its ranks.
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George.D. 9 May, 2008, 21:51 I think to answer this question, it will be a great idea to have RT go to Estonia and Latvia and ask the local ethnic Russians on how they feel there ,. .because on forums like this you will only here ones own propaganda about the issue,. Russians only make 25% of the population there, far from being colonizers they are a small minority ,.if you want to see real colonization go to Hawaii a place which i have been, the Hawaiians have become 15% of the total population now that's real colonization .
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Marzipan6 10 May, 2008, 03:24 Wayne writes, “I have seen this myself while working in Latvia .My ex-wifes mother is an Alien citezen of Latvia she lived their most of her life and her children where born their .” ( Isn’t it annoying that you can’t go back and correct typos in your submitted posts? I have included Wayne’s typos in my quote for authenticity, but recognize I also have typos in my own posts.) OK – Wayne tells us that he has seen something in Latvia, but he doesn’t actually specify what it is that he has seen. Presumably he was responding to John’s earlier equally as factless harrumph, “The Baltic States are a shame for Europe…they are a bastion of fascism and racism….” If it is fascism and racism that they have both seen, then all I can say is that it has not only been invisible to myself on visits there, but is also invisible to prestigious journals like The Economist. Do please read about it at http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=9645274 . It has also been invisible to EU investigation teams throughout both the long and rigorous pre-membership period in the Baltics, and subsequently. Still, when Russia views the Baltics it tells us that it is seeing things, and it wouldn't tell a lie. Perhaps Wayne can also explain to us the circumstances under which his former mother-in-law actually arrived in Latvia in the first place, and which legitimate Latvian immigration authority actually stamped her foreign passport, issued her visa and authorized her presence in Latvia. That would be really interesting to know.
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Democracy Sceptic 10 May, 2008, 12:04 As a Brit I have a limited understanding of some of the issues surrounding the rights of citizenship for former Soviet migrants residing within the Baltic States. When I was in Tallinn I did get a clear impression of resentment against the ethnic Russian populace within Estonia from ethnic Estonians. Indeed I developed (perhaps wrongly) an impression of empathy with the imagined prospect of Estonia’s being held under Nazi rule rather than under the Soviet’s during those years I believe that the Baltic States should be made to grant unconditional citizenship to all persons born within their territories and who have continuously resided there, by the EU as a fundamental human right. Should there be a requirement to see all residents being required to speak the declared national language? Well, ideally yes, but I don’t believe it should be imposed retrospectively. Here in Britain, we have swathes of individuals who prefer not to learn or speak English for whatever reason. We’re also seeing a revival of the Welsh language. Although I believe that children within an EU member state would do better to learn another EU language rather than an historic tongue, that is their human right. I know that pressure exerted on governments by their indigenous populations to curb immigration will make greater impact opon matters of unrestricted movement of individuals, citizenship acquisition, rights of abode and ultimately human rights issues. It is already starting to bite here within the UK. As a British born man who has fallen in love with a woman bearing a non EU passport (of similar age), despite applications and a judicial appeal to be allowed to marry her within the UK with the view to her residing here, I’ve been told by the British authorities, that if I wish to maintain a relationship with her, I can do so in another country!
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IP 10 May, 2008, 15:34 The Baltic states discriminate against ethnic russian citizens living there and it is shocking how much nationalist tensions are there! In those countries they still have demonstrations in support of fascism and nazis which, you must agree, is UNHEARD OF in any other civilised or developping counrty! In their school textooks they have nacionalist and racist jokes about russians, chinese and black people! As soon at their counties joined the EU, most of the young population went to live in the west, that is to show that they are mainly diven by money, not patriotism! I beleive that the EU should teach them some good lessons on tolerance and democracy! Unfortunalely, it is not happening.
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David 10 May, 2008, 15:58 Sevodnya: It is interesting what you have said - our daughter is bornin england and has english citizenship without having to study english and write an exam - her parents are African and Russian. From what I understand what has been written and can only support those posting their thoughts, is that those Russians born and bred in the Baltics are given their right to have citizenship. This being the case goes against human rights and freedom bla bla bla (what a load of tosh) - never-the-less, the EU cannot practice one thing and turn a blind eye to another. And everyone goes on about human rights in Russia!! Sort out the Baltics and give these people what they deserve - their rights, equality, status and freedom.
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Vijay 10 May, 2008, 16:36 Marzipan6 - You’ve written some really long diatribes here. So let’s cut it short, by answering two questions! 1. Did or did not the NAZIS come to the Baltic’s as invaders? Or did they come as liberators, if yes, from whom and to what.? 2. Was there any force capable at that time, apart from the Soviets, which could confront and finally repel these forces of darkness? And finally did or did not your countrymen and others welcome the Soviets as Liberators? Let’s put to rest all conspiracy theories.!
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Sam 11 May, 2008, 05:24 Okey,a lot is said about the english language exams that have to be taken before british citizenship is granted. Points of correction, this is for immigrants and not for ethnic minorities that were born and lived all their lifes in the UK. I think if everyone in the UK of ethnic minority were forced to take an english examination it would be racist and will cause a major outcry. Go to areas in east London like Eastham and you will rarely hear english spoken.Are we to Treat these people differently? Noone is saying that the baltic states should not request knowledge of their language before a citizenship should be granted to an immigrant,but the ethnic Russians are not immigrants in the first place.most of them were born there and lived all their lives there and have no other home. For these of my fellow Britons that seem to have a difficult understanding lets make a home example. A family from Bangladesh immigrated to the UK in the 1970s, all their children born in the UK will now be force to take a test in English language, will you as a human being say that is right? So why are you here saying the Baltic states have the right to do such a thing?
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Marzipan6 11 May, 2008, 08:01 Democracy Sceptic writes, “As a Brit I have a limited understanding of some of the issues surrounding the rights of citizenship for former Soviet migrants residing within the Baltic States. When I was in Tallinn I did get a clear impression of resentment against the ethnic Russian populace within Estonia from ethnic Estonians.” It is praiseworthy that DS recognizes his limited understanding of some of the relevant issues (and I mean this sincerely, not at all sarcastically). Other contributors also have a very limited understanding, but don’t seem to recognize it. As a result, their minds do not seem to be open for further learning, possibly because they believe they have nothing more to learn. When were you in Tallinn, DS? If you were there before 1991, you certainly would have come across enormous resentment of the ethnic Russian population (although even then, it was never expressed in violence). At that time, Estonia was an occupied county, being steadily choked to death by a deliberate exercise of Soviet social engineering whose instruments were not only state terror and repression, but also, the uncontrolled immigration of hundreds of thousands of Russian colonists, for the explicit purpose of turning Estonians into a minority within their own land. Estonians were severely discriminated against in favour of the newcomers in regard to housing, jobs, education, the Estonian language was steadily being replaced by Russian as the language in which all business of any kind was to be conducted, Estonian-language publications and broadcasting were being rolled back in favour of Russian ones, Estonian culture and traditions were being replaced by those of the colonists – in short, Estonia was becoming just another province of Russia, not unlike the condition of Tibet today in regard to China. And Estonians had no voice in the matter, and no opportunity to stop their slow cultural genocide. Under those circumstances, you would have undoubtedly come across a fair bit of anti-Russian resentment in Tallinn. However, all this changed from 1991 onwards, with the end of the Soviet occupation. Whereas Russians had behaved with ostentatious, “in-your-face” kind of braggadocio in both official capacities and very frequently also personally, they suddenly became rather quiet and retiring, unsure of their situation in an environment in which they were no longer the colonial masters. Many thousands of them left altogether, and many of those who remained (though not all) began adapting to the status of ordinary people in an ordinary country. In more recent visits to Estonia, I have noticed that the Russian population now generally behave in a normal way, neither with exaggerated braggadocio nor with unnatural shyness, and that is good to see. DS continues, “I believe that the Baltic States should be made to grant unconditional citizenship to all persons born within their territories and who have continuously resided there, by the EU as a fundamental human right.” If this were to happen across the board, then Soviet Moscow’s evil intention of turning the Baltics into just another Russian province will have been accomplished (read some time the history of what Russia did to Karelia, originally a part of Finland). Estonians would be swamped in their own lands by their large ethnic Russian population and by the endless supply of relatives that they have just across the border, who would quickly stream across and complete the original plan of russification. This, of course, would be a gross violation of the rights of Estonians themselves – but possibly, that does not especially concern DS. What Estonia has chosen is a middle course: welcoming the continued presence of the foreign population, and offering them citizenship by naturalization on the standard terms that apply for any country anywhere. Since 1991, more than 152,000 people have acquired Estonian citizenship. This way exceeds the 111,000 people who remain with undetermined citizenship. The numbers of the latter are continually reducing due to an active naturalization program. Finally, DS likens Estonia’s foreign population with Britain’s. DS, Britain was never under a foreign occupation by a murderous regime that killed or deported hundreds of thousands of Britons and replaced them by many times more that number of foreign colonists for the specific purpose of turning Britons into a minority in their own land, and ensuring that the destruction of Britain's sovereignty, which had already been achieved, would become irreversible. This does not mean that colonists in Estonia should be personally punished, and neither they are. But it does mean that the integration of these people into the mainstream of the nation is much more difficult than anything Britain ever has had to confront, or is ever likely to. And by the way, there is no personal requirement upon anyone in the Baltics to speak any particular language – they can speak whatever their heart desires. But official business is done in the language of the land, and people in jobs that interact with the public must be able to speak the language of the land as well as whatever other language they choose. You see, surprising as it may seem, Estonians have some rights in their own country, too. Amongst these is the right to be understood by medical staff, by taxi drivers, by police, by shop assistants and restaurant staff and by others when they have need of such services.
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Marzipan6 11 May, 2008, 08:15 David – perhaps you can explain to us the circumstances in which your daughter’s parents arrived in the UK. Presumably the British government actually authorised their arrival, and they were not illegal immigrants or colonists under an occupation regime? Your non-English speaking daughter’s parents are British citizens? If even one non-Estonian speaking child, who has been born in free Estonia is an Estonian citizen, he or she will also have automatic citizenship, just like your daughter. People of foreign ethnicity in Estonia, including Russians, have every right, equality, status and freedom guaranteed to citizens and non-citizens by EU and UN protocols.
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Marzipan6 11 May, 2008, 08:38 Vijay – my dictionary defines “diatribe” as “a bitter or malicious denunciation”. I am just presenting facts in a logical, verifiable and objective a way as possible, that’s all. As for brief answers to your brief questions, here they are: “1. Did or did not the NAZIS come to the Baltic’s as invaders? Or did they come as liberators, if yes, from whom and to what.?” They certainly came as invaders. But when they came in 1941, the Baltics had already been under Moscow’s occupation for 14 months. That was a time of such horrific atrocities committed by Soviet Russians against the civilian populations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, on such an unimaginable mass scale, that the populations of those countries were in absolute shock. Consequently, when the Germans first arrived, they were viewed as some kind of liberators. The locals felt that nothing could possibly be worse than the Soviet terror they had already endured. But they soon learned that Germans likewise cared nothing for liberty, and were also cruel oppressors. However, their violence against Baltic people was not as horrific as that of the Soviets had been. “2. Was there any force capable at that time, apart from the Soviets, which could confront and finally repel these forces of darkness?” No. But the Soviets did not replace darkness with light. They came to replace darkness with more darkness. “And finally did or did not your countrymen and others welcome the Soviets as Liberators?” No.
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Konstantin 11 May, 2008, 09:00 I agree when it comes to foreigners who want to acquire the Estonian, Latvian or Lithuanian citizenship, that they must learn the language and fact about the country. Germany introduced such a test aswell. But how can you deny old people who lived there their whole lives the citizenship of the new free country? You tell them go back to Russia if you can't pass this 'simple test'? Those people are no Russians who came to the Baltics to occupy the country because they are evil, they were sent by the Soviet government and they had the Soviet citizenship. I understand if you want to send back people who came after 1991 but people who lived there their whole life? Marzipan6, your arguments are clear but you have to admit that there are not other countries in EU which have such a special status for people who live there at least not in such a large scale. The vast majority of Turks living in Germany has a German passport because they were born in Germany and their families are in Germany and they have the same rights as ethnic Germans.
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