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Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?
Sevodnya_Net 11 May, 2008, 09:26 To David, (I take it you mean "British" citizenship). I was referring to citizenship for foreign nationals coming to eg Britain. Of course one has the right to citizenship in Britain if born there. I don't know what the situation is in Latvia but from what I understand in Estonia and Lithuania Russians born in those countries automaticallly qualify for citizenship too, but I stand to be corrected. What is the "load of tosh" you are referring to by the way? To IP: there are demonstrations in favour of fascism and Nazism in many "civilised" countries - Britain being one example: I remain unconvinced that the Baltic States are any worse in this respect.
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MihalMihalich 11 May, 2008, 16:39 RE: to fascist Marzipan6. “Does NATO Make the World More Secure” or “Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?” has nothing to do with your ProNazi SPAM. When people were talking about NATO Military block - you were talking about rage toward anything Russian and Warsaw Pack after WW2. You were & you ARE OFF TOPIC. But now you got to me. Dear Ladies & Gentlemen. In WW2 Estonians were fighting on side of FASCIST NAZI Germany, “1st Estonian” Waffen SS division counted 70,000+ men which mean EVERY THIRD adult MEN!!! Those Estonians sealed their fate when they Joined German PARTICIPATED IN WW2 CRIMES! today 60% of Estonias are Nazis and that is highly reflected in Estonian political power and Parliament. Maybe only German fascists during WW2 were as good Nazis as Estonians are today. Estonians respect Nazism and they put up Waffen SS monuments. Pure Arian Race cleansing country from dirty Russian pigs. Reflected in Estonian Political position, which is clearly anti-Russian. Before WW2 Estonia was agricultural after Russian Occupation Estonia came out industrial. Which its partially why so many Russians in Estonia. As you know Russia gave freedom to all those Republics without a shot fired, and let them keep everything USSR built during Occupation time. Today there are over 1000 companies that partially or fully Russian, Russian oil export money goes through Estonian banks. In return Russians get racism similar to what Albanians did to Serbs before the war. Anti-Russian service package includes anything from refusal to accept Russian children to kindergarten & closing Russian schools to refusal in employment. Other thing is Europe & US doesn’t want Estonia, you are not important to then. Keep it in mind next time you bend, today’s nazism will be tomorrows terrorism yet again. Best Regards.
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Sevodnya_Net 11 May, 2008, 19:54 MihalMihalich, your comments are not only wildly inaccurate but offensive. It is historical fact that the USSR illegally occupied the Baltic states after WWII. Given the shocking treatment meted out to those countries during and since the war by Nazis and Soviet Communists alike it strikes me as a near miracle that these nations today are as well-balanced politically as they are. Your comment about 60% of Estonians being Nazis is typical of the baseless bluster spouted by so many on here. Show me some facts to back up your case and I will humbly acknowledge your point. Otherwise consider more carefully the implications of your scattergun insults.
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Marzipan6 11 May, 2008, 20:02 Konstantin, old people who wish to take out Estonian citizenship do not have to pass a language test. Sam, your family from Bangladesh had entered the country legally, by the express permission of the British government, and for the purpose of building up Britain, not destroying it.
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Vijay 11 May, 2008, 20:09 They came to replace darkness with more darkness. Hah.During the first wave of killings in 1941–42, Roma people, alleged Communist activists, and the mentally disabled were also targeted AND MORE Hah. At the end of the war, only 10–15% of Lithuania's Jews survived, most of them by escaping to the interior of the USSR during the German invasion in 1941. The genocide rate of Jews in Lithuania, 95–97%, was the highest in Europe. This was primarily due, with few notable exceptions, to widespread Lithuanian help and cooperation with the German occupiers at all levels of society But when they came in 1941, the Baltic’s had already been under Moscow’s occupation for 14 months. Therefore, with the beginning of Operation Barbarossa in June 1941, the Lithuanian nationalist Temporary Government declared that a re-established independent Lithuania would ally itself with Nazi Germany to "create a new order in Europe (Excerpt from Wiki) Marzipan6 - The more you try to defend your position, historically/socially/contemporary event wide, the more you fall into your own self-made trap/s. The simple fact is - All Baltic states, with some differences, are AS guilty if NOT MORE, of killing, raping, and subjugation of any nationals that in their view, presented a point of view that was different from their own - PURE UNADULTERATED NAZISM.and it continues till Today. Therefore whatever, crimes Soviets OR Soviet Russians (in your words) committed or did not commit, they fail in front of yours - i.e. - According to German documents, between 25 and 26 June 1941, "about 1,500 Jews were eliminated by the Lithuanian partisans. Many Jewish synagogues were set on fire; on the following nights another 2,300 were killed."[59] By November of 1941, many Jews had been killed in places like Paneriai (Ponary massacre). The surviving 40,000 Jews were concentrated in the Vilnius, Kaunas, Šiauliai, and Šven?ionys ghettos, and in concentration camps, where many died of starvation or disease. Mr. Marzipan6, it’s high time you got a refresher course in history, maybe which would somehow enable you to face your conscience better. And stop blaming [Soviet RUSSIANS] for THOSE every damn crime/s that you guys have committed. For otherwise.You and people like you are murdering monsters. Nothing more.nothing less.!! P.S. - Nevertheless, together with voluntary Lithuanian auxiliaries, the Germans were able to start large scale mass shootings of Jews. PPS - The Holocaust claimed approximately 85,000 lives in Latvia. The killings were committed by the Einsatzgruppe A, the Wehrmacht and Marines (in Liep?ja), as well as by Latvian collaborators, including the 500-1,500 members of the infamous Ar?js Commando (which alone killed around 26,000 Jews) and the 2,000 or more Latvian members of the SD.
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Vijay 11 May, 2008, 20:28 A follow up - An estimated 10,000 Jews were killed in Estonia after having been deported to camps there from elsewhere in Eastern Europe.[53] There have been trials of 7 ethnic Estonians (Ralf Gerrets, Ain-Ervin Mere, Jaan Viik, Juhan Jüriste, Karl Linnas, Aleksander Laak and Ervin Viks) for crimes against humanity.(Source Wiki) Marzipan6 - If any apology is due from anyone to anybody, its from people like you and to descendant of those killed. For while the Soviet occupation was the result of Geopolitics, the killings were the result of PURE HATRED and UNBRIDLED ATROCITIES. Even Hitler must have been had some of that PURE ARYAN ESTONIAN/LITUANIAN BLOOD somewhere down his lineage.for he could not have committed those crimes otherwise.
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Democracy Sceptic 11 May, 2008, 21:55 Having seen Marzipan6’s last posting in which he responds to my previous comments. I do not doubt that you have a greater understanding of the history of the Baltic occupation by the Nazis and Soviets. Furthermore I have no doubt that the Baltic peoples suffered tremendously during World War 2 and since. What I wish to say to you is this, wars are a bad business, in the WW2 there were virtually no winners. Even if countries were not actually invaded (like mine), much human life and historic infrastructure was lost forever. I spent my early years with food rationing and frugal living along with so many other European children born during and after the WW2 years. The map of Europe was changed with millions of displaced and stateless persons. What I’m trying to say, is that we should not live in the past, what was done was done and we must all move forward. That is the principal reason that the European Union was formed between former foes to ensure that these things should never happen again. The Baltic States are now of their own choice members of the European Union. If these countries wish to be in this “club”, then I believe they must embrace the spirit of the EU’s raison d’être. Thus the Baltic States should be made to grant unconditional citizenship to all persons born within their territories. Discrimination against persons by reason of their ethnic ancestor’s behaviour is not permissible and should not be allowed by any EU State. Marzipan6, I do not know your nationality, but suspect that if you were British you would be a member of the British National Party. You would campaign for repatriation of all non indigenous (even if born in UK) peoples. You would support the rhetoric of the gutter press that is forcing the British Home Office to increase the deportation rate of asylum seekers, before adequate examination has been carried out, thus returning them to persecution. You would help create the environment that is eroding the previous freedoms that all British have previously enjoyed. An environment in which I'm now not able to marry and reside with my future non EU wife in my own country.
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MihalMihalich 12 May, 2008, 06:02 Sevodnya_Net I came across a poll made in Estonia where it showed that practically all Estonians who live in the countryside support nationalistic ideas. Which is reflected in Parliament elected… and since in Estonia Parliament elects President(not a people elected) and it turned out that POLITICAL DECISIONS were made to build monuments to NAZI WAFFEN SS. Rest off your comments is not related to my post but let me express IMO on it. USSR occupied Eastern Europe to provide some level of security from USA, as the States were developing and preparing a nuclear attack on USSR constantly (for decades) postponing date of attack. And it wasn’t a plan like to tactically nuke a few underground facilities in Iran, they were planes to destroy the entire country. So USSR were using force to keep occupied countries (Warsaw pack) until they developed bombers that could fire back and ICBMs that could end USA and NATO if USSR were attacked… after which USSR pulled out from Europe. US made & used first nuke, they were first to say USSR pure evil should be destroyed not Russians, and Europe was in middle of the conflict. By the way Sevodnya_Net, guess who started Cold War? You’re a British so you should know… it was something like… Winston Churchill practically declared war on USSR as US notified Churchill that they no longer need “such allies” because they have Nuclear Bomb. Yet everyone blames Russians for Cold War. United States made billions on Cold War, Europe paid billions, USSR quit Cold War de facto!! What does it tell you about Russia? That they are not in it for the money that they don’t want to fight, that they want to live without any nuclear or NATO threat on doorstep. British, French, German, Polish, Mongolians and many others brought war to Russia to get some (land, wealth, resources) and Russians don’t care what Mask the enemy is wearing. US is occupying Iraq & Afghanistan and they do it to provide security to America… if you think occasion is shocking treatment, why don’t you and Mazipan6 go express your occupation objections if you dare, instead of trying to rewrite WW2 history. Be a part of new history, they’ll call you guy-who-dared-to-say-about-unlawful-occupation-of-Iraq. Get transparency “bring 3 million refugees home”. Regards,
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Sam 12 May, 2008, 06:18 It already feels like I am Haunting Sevodnya_Net and trying not to reply to his posts but again have to say,Yes you stand corrected so why are you making an example when you dont even know whats its about?What has the UK law for new immigrants got to do with the situation in the Baltic states were everyone not Estonian is forced to learn the language? Marzapan I had discussed with you before and tried not reading your posts since the last time you made a racist comment about Slavery in the americans. But will reply to you once more. Oh yes all the people of Russian origin entered the baltics legally.They did not climb over the wall did they? Estonia was part of the USSR and soviet citizens migrated there, full stop. But from you posted I see typical example of estonian mentality,which is punish the individual for the sins of the USSR.In fact you made it all clear that they are being punished not because of being a minority but for being Russian. Once again good bye Mazapan.
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Sam 12 May, 2008, 07:31 Here is what the British Foreign and Commonwealth office has to say on what is happening to the ethnic minority Russians in Estonia: The Estonian Government requires those applying for citizenship to demonstrate knowledge of the Estonian language and constitution. Many Russian speakers, especially the elderly, are reluctant or unable to learn the Estonian language to the required level, and thus remain stateless. Non-citizens with residence permits are entitled to aliens' passports for foreign travel (however, they require a visa for travel to many other countries, including the UK.) Non-citizens are entitled to work, live, own property, obtain pensions etc as any other residents in Estonia. They are allowed to vote in local government elections but not national elections. In 2005, the number of naturalised citizens exceeded the number of non-citizens for the first time, but around 10% of the Estonian population remain without citizenship I do believe they mentioned the Elderly are also affected.
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john 12 May, 2008, 07:43 I have to express my disbelief that the Russian government has not charged that Balts in the European Court for Human Rights. This is the least what the Russian government should do and long time ago. The EU has no choice here but to enforce its own standards. It is also disappointing that the EU has failed to do just that out of its own initiative.
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Marzipan6 12 May, 2008, 11:00 Vijay, a lot of Jews were indeed killed in Estonia. Germans established some death camps there as well as some transit camps, and to Estonia’s eternal shame, a small number of its citizens also participated in German crimes. This happened at a time when there was no sovereign government in the country, when it was under total German occupation, and after it had already been shattered by the extremely brutal Soviet occupation of 1940-41. Which doesn’t even begin to excuse Estonian participation in some German crimes. I simply make the point that unlike Nazi German and Soviet Russian national policies, murder and oppression were never the policy of any Estonian government. Not only was the merest minority of Estonia’s population involved in Nazi crimes, but even amongst the personnel of those death camps, only the merest minority were Estonians. Regardless of this, the government of re-independent Estonia has apologised many times for those events, from its President and Parliament on down, and participates in solemn ceremonies of remembrance and reconciliation with Jewish people each year on the annual Holocaust day, at an official memorial that has been established at the former site of one of those camps. One searches in vain for anything remotely equivalent ever occurring in Russia in regard to its hundreds of thousands of Baltic victims. When it comes to your comments of “pure hatred” motivating Nazi but not Soviet criminals, not being a psychologist and never having anything to do with either camp, I find myself unable to comment authoritatively on it. Anecdotally I am aware of sadists and monsters amongst both. But the real issue is the political dogma which drove the criminality of both. In each case, people were dehumanised, by Berlin on the basis of ethnicity and by Moscow on the basis of social class. Once people were thus dehumanised, it was no longer deemed necessary to treat either group of victims as if they were humans, and they were enslaved and killed pitilessly by both those totalitarian monstrosities. Whereas I’m not aware of any lingering de-humanisation of Jewish people happening in Germany, I certainly am aware of fairly unsubtle continuing dehumanisation and mass slander of Baltic peoples by certain Russophiles, which from time to time is not altogether invisible in this forum thread, either. Whether or not that springs from “pure hatred” on their part, is not for me to say. But I’m fairly sure it does not spring from love.
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Marzipan6 12 May, 2008, 12:28 Democracy Sceptic writes, “What I’m trying to say, is that we should not live in the past, what was done was done and we must all move forward.” This is absolutely true, and I couldn’t agree more with DS. Estonia, for example, does not live in the past. It lives very much in the present and very much for the future. Building the progressive, successful, technologically advanced and increasingly prosperous society which it has, and that some time ago overtook the per capita GNP of its first Western European partner (Portugal) is really possible only for a forward-looking society. Part of Estonia’s progress involves healing the enormous wounds of the past, which Soviet Moscow’s policies and practices struck into the fabric of the country. The vast ecological damage which Moscow had caused has had to be restored. The horribly run-down and decrepit infrastructure which Moscow bequeathed it has had to be renewed. The democratic institutions which Moscow had destroyed have had to be re-established. The economic bankruptcy of the Soviet legacy has had to be overcome, as has the spiritual bankruptcy which was also the legacy of Soviet rule. The values of “Homo Sovieticus”, the development of which was a specific Soviet goal, has morally and ethically poisoned Estonians just as it has Russians. One particularly egregious wound which the Soviet Union struck against Estonia, and which doesn’t have any counterpart in any other sovereign nation of Europe with the exception of Latvia, was the attempted permanent destruction of Estonian nationhood – cultural genocide, if you please – by socially engineering Estonia’s population through terror and repression as well as through mass foreign colonisation into an incohesive, unassimilated, socially and culturally disunited and unviable mass of people with no concept of Estonian nationhood, and in which Estonians themselves were to form the minority group and over time, disappear altogether. The collapse of the Soviet Union happened at almost the last possible moment for an Estonian nation to be able to recovered – had the Soviet entity lasted for just a few more decades, any possibility of Estonian nationhood would have been destroyed forever, and along with it, Estonian culture – just like Finno-Ugric culture has been permanently destroyed in region after region of original Finno-Ugric areas of Russia. Since there are only a million Estonians in the world, that would mean a permanent and final extinction. You will appreciate that Estonians do not want this to happen. Estonia, living in the present and for the future, has set about healing those terrible wounds, and is doing so with dignity, sensitivity, and in full observance of all relevant international protocols. It is expelling no one, but is telling its new population, “You want to live with us? Fine. We want to live with you. Please learn about us, learn our language, understand our real history, not the make-believe Soviet version, please mix with us and spread throughout our country, not just stay in your own little ghettos. Understand what has happened to us, understand our pains and our joys, be part of our lives, and respect us enough to allow us to be part of yours. Value your own Russian culture, and hold on to it - it is one of the great cultures of the world. But please don't throttle and kill ours with it.” Achieving this is not an easy task, DS, and no one pretends that Estonia has tackled it as perfectly as could be done. But then, no one has done it better, because just about no one else has had to do it at all. Most observers give high praise to Estonia for its progress. Only Russia, the historical home of those who caused the problems in the first place, continues its strident criticism. This is a real shame, as Estonia would love to have a positive partnership with its Eastern neighbour. Russia, however, seems to have a different idea of what the ideal shape of its relations with its neighbours ought to be. That is something that its neighbours have to bear, and it doesn’t make Estonia’s tasks any the easier. You see, it isn’t enough just for Estonia to be forward-looking; Russia has to be forward-looking as well. Glorifying the Soviet Union, as Russia constantly does, is not consistent with looking forward.
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Marzipan6 12 May, 2008, 12:49 Sam writes, “Oh yes all the people of Russian origin entered the Baltics legally. They did not climb over the wall did they? Estonia was part of the USSR and soviet citizens migrated there, full stop.” Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were never a legal part of the Soviet Union, Sam, any more that Denmark, Belgium or the Netherlands were ever a legal part of the Third Reich. All – all without exception – were under foreign occupation. For all, without exception, that occupation was illegal from its first day to the last. In the case of all without exception, the world at large did not recognise their occupation. Free Baltic ambassadors continued to function in parts of the Western world, such as Washington, where Ernst Jaakson, who took up his diplomatic post as a young man in 1939 continued as Estonian ambassador until 1993. He was the longest-serving foreign diplomatic representative to the United States, and held the position of the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps. Every last foreign soldier who crashed through the borders of those occupied countries did so illegally. Every last purveyor of foreign state terror and oppression who came in their trail did so illegally. As did every colonist, not a one of whom was authorised to come nor admitted by any of the occupied countries’ immigration authorities. Soviet citizens had the right to migrate where they wished within their own Soviet land (subject to the restrictions of their own Soviet government). The Baltics were never legal nor internationally recognised parts of their Soviet land. The world at large did not think so, and the Baltics themselves did not think so. Only Stalin and his successors thought so.
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Marzipan6 12 May, 2008, 12:55 Sam writes, apparently quoting from a British source, “The Estonian Government requires those applying for citizenship to demonstrate knowledge of the Estonian language and constitution. Many Russian speakers, especially the elderly, are reluctant or unable to learn the Estonian language to the required level, and thus remain stateless.” Elderly people applying for citizenship do not need to have knowledge of the Estonian language.
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Sevodnya_Net 12 May, 2008, 13:32 Sam asked me (for some reason :-) ) "What has the UK law for new immigrants got to do with the situation in the Baltic states were everyone not Estonian is forced to learn the language?" Absolutely nothing - but you should be directing your question at David, who made the dubious comparison between the 2 countries in the first place.
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Sevodnya_Net 12 May, 2008, 14:05 MihalMihalich "I came across a poll made in Estonia where it showed that practically all Estonians who live in the countryside support nationalistic ideas." etc etc Sorry to be difficult but that is rather vague. "Nationalistic" hardly = "Nazi", otherwise many countries the world over could be classed as "Nazi". Estonia is a small country of barely one million people which was been raped and pillaged by hostile neighbours for centuries. Given that, it would be surprising for there NOT to be a nationalistic trend in that country. Ditto your point about "political decisions" to build SS memorials. I'm led to believe that Estonia is "littered" - for want of a better word - with Red Army war memorials. If Estonia for one, was the hotbed of Nazism you claim it to be then how come these monuments have not been demolished? On the matter of history I don't think the occupation of the Baltic states had a lot to do with the Cold War: Estonia was effectively annexed before the invasion of the Soviet Union when oh look, suprise surprise the Soviet Union, that gallant anti-Nazi defender of freedom, was actually in a pact with Nazi Germany, in an act airily dismissed by Vijay as "geopolitical" (and therefore of course "OK" :- ) ) More interestingly, and to the point, from what Sam says I have sympathy with Russians in Estonia who are denied citizenship because they are unable (not those who are "reluctant") to learn Estonian to the "required level". Perhaps Marzipan6 could comment on this. (You probably already have but I can't find it!)
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Regular_John 12 May, 2008, 14:14 And to Estonia’s eternal shame, a small number of its citizens also participated in German crimes. This happened at a time when there was no sovereign government in the country, when it was under total German occupation, and after it had already been shattered by the extremely brutal Soviet occupation of 1940-41. Which doesn’t even begin to excuse Estonian participation in some German crimes marzipan6 I would accept your argument that Estonia had no choice in its action during WW2 but for one very disturbing point which is the Estonian Government seems to revel in its Nazi past. It allows old Nazi veterans to parade around in full Nazi regalia wearing symbols that if worn in Germany France or Britain would get them arrested for inciting racial hatred Also rather than feeling the shame you speak of the Estonian Government builds memorials to these murdering thugs who under their Nazi rulers butchered so many innocent Jewish men women and children. Not just in their own homeland but in Poland too. I saw an interview with one of these so called patriots dressed up like a “dogs dinner” in full Nazi regalia saying how he enjoyed shooting retreating Soviet soldiers in the back ( what a hero) it made me feel sick.
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Vijay 12 May, 2008, 16:18 Marzipan6 - At the end of the war, only 10–15% of Lithuania's Jews survived, most of them by [escaping to the interior of the USSR] during the German invasion in 1941. The genocide rate of Jews in Lithuania, 95–97%, was the highest in Europe. This was primarily due, with few notable exceptions, [to widespread Lithuanian help and cooperation with the German occupiers] at all levels of society - You call widespread help and cooperation miniscule.? I don’t know of any dictionary that gives that meaning? Those Jews that escaped went NOT west or south, they went towards USSR. Know why? Because they knew, whatever political ideologues were ruling USSR then, (Russians according to you), would never discriminate primarily due to ethnic reasons. Lastly, Marzipan6, many countries were under German yoke between 1941 and 1945, however, NO OTHER COUNTRY AS A WHOLE, cooperated with the Nazis so much, as you people did, as to exceed them in cruelty. Killing thousands, exterminating entire class of people, raping/murdering/marauding.you call that little.! SHAME ON YOU and all those that call for ACTION against the 'Gross injustices' of SOVIET [Russians]. And the same bent of mind continues till today.vicious Fascist, Neo-Nazi behaviour. Perhaps that’s all you know and all you guys care about.!
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Sam 12 May, 2008, 19:15 Sevodnya_Net please do not direct the comment to the wrong person. Your post was the fourth when this line was open and thats when you made the comment well before David came on the forum. this is what you posted "In Britain you can't pass a citizenship exam without knowledge of English, so it isn't just the Baltic states" Please scroll down and check.
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