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Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?
Sevodnya_Net 7 August, 2008, 22:14 Rad, You are plainly insane, yet strangely entertaining :-)
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Giustino 8 August, 2008, 09:06 I wanted to revise something I wrote here previously. I just spent the weekend in Tallinn, and I felt much less tension than I did a year ago. I had written here that Tallinn is a self-segregating city -- maybe in places it is. But it's also true that I noticed none of that on this occasion. In fact, the conversations at the playground were trilingual -- Estonian, English, and Russian. Tallinn is a very globalized place. It always has been. The Baltic German nobility essentially ran it from the 13th century to the 20th, from time to time switching allegiances for their benefit. In 1561, they willingly submitted to Erik of Sweden. In 1710, they made a deal with Peter the Great that reserved for them extensive rights within the Russian empire. You see, Tallinn was never to be a part of Russia proper. It was always to be an external possession with extensive self government -- the landesstadt diet. Serfdom ended in Estland in 1816. It didn't end in Russia proper for 50 more years. The radicalization of the Slavophiles of the late 19th century alienated the Baltic German aristocracy and turned them towards the growing German Confederation. They built statues of Peter the Great to remind the new Slavophiles of their old deal, to no avail. The Estonian people were mildly-pro tsarist. They wanted to play the Baltic Germans and the Russians off one another in return for greater autonomy for themselves. Indeed, it was at this time that the public language began to shift from German to Estonian, even if the signs were in Russian, thanks to the Russification campaigns. When it was clear that the Russian Empire could not be salvaged in 1918, the Estonians went their own way. Do you honestly blame them for not wanting to submit to Lenin or whatever kook wound up running the Kremlin? The prefer their own kooks, thanks. It's humorous, to me at least, that the Estonian-Nazi meme has been resurrected here by some of the more radical/insane comments on this board. Sure, Estonians collaborated with the German Reich. They also collaborated with the Soviet Union. Just as Johannes Lauristin was willing to go to Moscow and lay a wreath at Lenin's tomb, Dr. Hjalmar Mäe was willing to salute the fuhrer and work actively with the German occupants. To try an pin Nazi sympathies on the Päts government, or Jüri Uluots, though, is a joke. Päts was certain that the alliance between Stalin and Hitler wouldn't last, and he was willing to appease the Soviets because he figured it would buy Estonia time. He was off in his timing, though, by about one year. The Estonians actually put a feeler to the Germans -- who controlled Baltic Sea shipping -- in 1939, before the Winter War, to see if they could procure arms and supplies to resist the Soviets, but the Germans rebuffed them, because Stalin and Hitler had their pact. The Germans cynically exploited northern European nationalism during their three year occupation. Some people in Estonia still have a hard time making that distinction. I say some, but it's actually a few. These arguments are quite marginal in society. The reason we spend time arguing about them is because some actors in both countries feel like they need to build up state identity and they are willing to shade history in different ways to do that. Some right wing Estonian leaders want the Estonians to be proud of their past and know they fought for their freedom. Putin wants the same thing. The war crimes associated with both Nazi and Soviet regimes are deemphasized in favor of the glamorization not of Stalinism or Hitlerism, but of war and obedience to the state. I believe that is an argument for middle-aged architects of state ideology. It has little to do with the needs of regular people. And, IP, this gets to your comment. A few years ago it was Latvia that was bad and Estonia that was good. Now it looks like Georgia will be Russia's number one external enemy for the rest of 2008. I wonder how it is that a nation of 1.3 million people can really threaten a country of 140 million, but the Russian spin doctors can make it so. After all, if the state owns the media, it goes from Putin's lips to your brain. But the reason Estonians and Russians don't get along is because they are very different kinds of people, and Russia makes some assumptions about the relationship that ultimately backfire. Estonians are stubborn, blunt, tactless northern Europeans who have been bullied around by successive overlords for a millennium. When an Estonian says something, he's often brutally honest and this offends the Russians. The Russians are used to emotional rhetoric and double-speak, where one thing means a different thing, and where certain deeds -- the Great Patriotic War, for instance -- are treated with almost fanatical religious reverence. If an Estonian says that the Red Army were like bandits -- he's being honest. Read any account of the Red Army's trek across Europe -- it's filled with tales of alcohol-fueled rapes and theft. But his honesty gets him into trouble, because to the Russian, he is defiling the sacred soldiers of the state's most holy war. He is ungrateful for their immense sacrifice . and on and on and on . with additional heated rhetoric and flowery words about saving civilization from evil and blah blah blah. The problem is that the Estonians often don't know when to keep their mouth shut, and the Russians take offense at basically everything. Sometimes it seems that the Estonians offend the Russians by merely existing. The Russians also have yet to comprehend that Estonian is a nationality linked to a place with its own unique history, not just some bitter ethnic group on its former territory. I understand the Russians. They have so many ethnic groups to keep down, that they have a hard time distinguishing between them. But, Estonia, by virtue of its history, is very different, and that is why a sizable chunk of younger Estonian Russians unequivocally call it their native home -- not because it used to be part of the Russian Empire, but because they are not from Russia, they are from Estonia. Estonia is its own, living breathing entity. It is its own society that has different actors and constituencies that rival one another for power. Russia plays a role in those relationships, but so does the US and so do Sweden and Finland and Germany and the EU. Estonia is also a democracy with a multi-party system, which range from agrarians to social democrats to liberals to conservatives. If things get bad, there's always the opportunity to change horses. That's why if various parts of society think that a policy isn't working, it's likely to change. It might take a few years for political will to develop, but it will most likely change. I mean, Britain had over a decade of Labor, but we know that sooner or later, the Conservatives will be back. Germany had decades of SDP rule, but then CDP was ascendant. Sweden too was under the Social Democrats, but now it's the Moderates that are running things. As it is elsewhere in Europe, so it will be in Estonia. In the meantime, why don't you stop wasting your time worrying about Tallinn, and start worrying about Moscow. What's the party system like there? I was always partial to Yabloko, but mostly because they had the best name.
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Marzipan6 9 August, 2008, 00:58 I’ll leave it to readers of Rad’s highly strung prose to judge its credibility for themselves. I’ll just comment briefly on two of his points which seem to be foundational to his world view. The first is this: Rad asks, “What happened (in 1941) to the lawful Soviet Government of Estonia?” There was no lawful Soviet Government of Estonia, not in 1940, 1941, 1945, 1991 or any time in between. The “elections” of 1940 were organised and conducted under the barrels of an overwhelming Russian military occupation. Only Communists were able to field candidates, even then there was only one candidate in each constituency, voters were intimidated, and the “results” (a ridiculous 92.2% Communist result) were broadcast by TASS from Moscow 12 hours before polling stations closed! The “elections” conformed to absolutely no Estonian constitutional norm, which was the only determiner of legality in the country. Thereafter the fraudulent “government” surrendered Estonian national sovereignty to Moscow, something which even a legitimate government had absolutely no constitutional right to do. This was the basis of Soviet rule in Estonia – it had simply no atom of legitimacy from its first to its last day. (As for what happened to the make-believe Soviet “government” in 1941, they escaped to Russia along with their only supporters, the Red Army, to a make-believe safety. Many of those Communist puppets were subsequently imprisoned and killed there by Stalin, which is one of the few good things that Stalin ever did.) The second point from Rad’s mish-mash that I wish to comment on is this: he writes, "I have also explained why Estonia belongs to the USSR (Russia) going back hundreds of years.” Indeed in 1710 Russia conquered Estonia, and even though no one asked Estonians’ opinion, by the primitive standards of the time it was deemed “legal”. But 1920 was part of the modern world already, and there the Soviet Union, in its Tartu Peace Treaty with Estonia, declared that it would “recognise the independence of Estonia and will give up forever every sovereign right Russia has ever had on the Estonian land and people….” There were at least ten treaties that Moscow violated in connection with the occupation of the Baltics, every single one of which rendered it illegal. I listed these in my post of 25 July 13:51. So when Rad uses the words “Estonia,” “Soviet” and “legal” in the one sentence, he is trying to tell a joke. But it is a joke whose punch-line he does not appear to understand himself, and which he therefore uses as the basis for pretty much his entire viewpoint on matters Estonian. He is hardly alone in that. The Russian President, Prime Minister, Duma, bureaucracy and much of the Russian media to this day continue to tell the same joke on themselves.
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john 9 August, 2008, 06:10 Sevodnya_Net What a crap you post. I have never seen any intelligent posting from you. If Stalin was a fool by entering into a deal with Hitler than who was Chamberlain. Get rid of you cold war mind set, get civilized and get some education. Perhaps you can gain a sober view of the world. I am definitely convinced that unless you bark on Russia and Eastern Europe you have no other reason to live.
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taikos 9 August, 2008, 07:15 my mother in law lives in Lithuania and the people in the apartment above her were renovating and using a jack hammer to take down a supporting wall which caused cracks and dust to appear in my mother inlaws apartment. When she went to complain she was told she was a russian bitch and to f*** off back home to Russia she has lived in lithuania before these people were even born and i think it is a disgusting way to treat an old age pensioner.
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Marzipan6 9 August, 2008, 07:33 Californian, you do give the impression of understanding English. And yet you claim I had stated that “Estonians fought for Nazi Germany.” No I didn’t. I have never stated that, whether here or anywhere else, because it simply isn’t true. Please quote to us exactly where you think I stated it. Here is a typical example of what I have consistently written on the subject: “Apart from the barest minimum of quislings and fools, Estonians served in both militaries not for the war aims of a gibbering maniac in Berlin or a bloodthirsty psychopath in Moscow, but for the purpose of doing what they could to help their own unfortunate homeland that had been comprehensively trampled by both” (July 30, 15:53). Some Estonians fought within the Red Army, but never FOR Soviet Russia; and some fought within the German military, but never FOR Nazi Germany. To Estonians in general, Communism was just as odious as Nazism, and both were committed to the destruction of the Estonian nation and Estonian freedom. Estonians fought for Estonia. Some Estonian refugees joined the US military after the war, and fought both in Korea and Vietnam. They, by their own statements which I have read, likewise did not fight “for the US,” but for Estonia in the only way they could, by fighting against international Communism.
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SrpskiCrnogorac 9 August, 2008, 16:33 "I wonder how it is that a nation of 1.3 million people can really threaten a country of 140 million, but the Russian spin doctors can make it so." And I wonder how it is that a nation like Cuba with 11 million people and even without a border with the USA, can be a threat to 300 million Americans, who have the biggest military of the world.
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David 9 August, 2008, 23:01 Yes - Georgia is a classic example of what is happening to Russian citizens - and Russia is only protecting her kith and kin. About time too.
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James 10 August, 2008, 00:21 Without going into World War II. It is Estonian (and Lithuanian) law prohibit even 2nd or 3rd generation ethnic Russians Estonian citizenship. There is a clear attempt to exempt Russians from taking part in civic society, this could be for numerous reasons, whether you agree with them or not. Giustino, you have a very optimistic view of western democracy, something that effectively destroyed Russia. You need to accept that democracy has some pretty severe flaws. Especially so, in the case of Western democracy. Estonian democracy will never be perfect, and in fact - is constitutionally racist in some regards. A country like Estonia should be developing a unique Estonian-Russian culture, instead they are attempting to develop Estonian 'purity' through a very elitist ethnically pure aristocracy, that people like you listen to and believe. I have been there btw. Whether you like the government or not, or whether you think Western political parties should never be banned, Russia is a democracy with barriers to some taking part in elections (that is, they cannot be on the bankroll of American organisations) - the American system effectively prohibits all but Democrats and Republicans running. All democracies are flawed, it would take ignorance or arrogance to presume Estonia, Russia or USA have more democracy than others.
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Rad 10 August, 2008, 01:55 Sevodnya_Net, I suppose under the "Losers Club" drumbeat tune of your General Lord Cornwallis' "The World Turned Upside Down," drinking warm beer while fondling the sporran on kilt wearing United Kingdom gentlemen and socialites, adorned with Nazi armbands, makes you plainly sane, yet strangely unbiased and white gloved. This is where your unconditional love and support for the Anglo-American World Court, Hague, League of Nations-United Nations and its One World Order basis of "Legitimacy" that carves up humanity to its own self serving devices comes from. Kalifornian, In your revisionist mindset as a USA democratic card carrying political party member and its deranged mouthpiece pundit, who reads verbatim from his US democratic party platform policy platform muttering "infrastructure," as if you came up with that farce yourself, you would rephrase "Jewish" victims of the Holocaust as "German" citizen victims to minimize deliberately targeting Jewish targeting deaths as a fervent Holocaust denier. You accuse others on the forum like johann of "nitpicking" your nitwit arguments, as in your absurd discussion of "infantry combat" in the other thread, and here you are "nitpicking" nut yourself. As an egocentric buffoon, then you go on to utter "It's a forum guys, not the final draft of a research paper." Whether minority ethnic Russian or Russian it makes no difference, just as it makes no difference whether Jewish, Jew, or ethnic Jewish minority. You still have not ventured into the "hood" of your own warped "Planet Hollywood" neighborhood for a reality check and continue running your mouth here with your "Losers Club" band of hooligans majoring in inhumanities. In your characteristic sick humor, you think it's some kind of joke.
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Estcom 10 August, 2008, 22:14 soviets didnt free anything in Estonia. if 50 years occupation and 1/3 estonians to siberia is freedom then russians are weird. And by the way, russians in Estonia can freely be estonian citizens, they have same laws as estonians. they can work, they can do everything as normal estonians. Thing is, some russians (most of them are good people and they dont think that Estonia is bad. They know that in russia things are worser) dont want to learn the language. And if they cant use russian language everywhere they want, then estonians are fascist. There are no fascist in Estonia. Russians should first look to theyre own country. Not as good as its look
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Answers 11 August, 2008, 07:45 So whats wrong with russians who live in Estonia? i cant find nothing. And if you ask russians whats wrong, they dont have answers
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David 11 August, 2008, 20:41 The current situation in Georgia is a perfect illustration of how Russian minority groups are being treated by others. And these people are being invited to join the Eu and other organisations - disgusting. It is total hypocrasy on the part of the West. Shameful.
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punkara 12 August, 2008, 00:59 I think that it would be very productive, and in fact might turn out to be a permanent resolution to this problem, if Russia would finally have the guts to publicly admit that the Soviet Union invaded the three Baltic States back in 1940, which is a historical fact, and to simply apologize for that to these 3 countries. I think it is obvious that these 3 tiny countries would always be worried and afraid for their safety, remembering what happened to them only 68 years ago. And today instead of a formal apology, Russia is taking an unreasonable in my opinion position, and claims instead that it "liberated" these 3 states from the Nazis! In effect what really happened was that Stalin's drive to conquer Europe and expand the USSR, something he had to do if the USSR was to survive, brought on the German attack on the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941, and thus also onto these recently occupied and sovietized countries. So, in reality not only the USSR invaded them, but its overall foreign policy at the time caused these 3 states the German invasion, and then again the Red Army invasion, and subsequent sovietization until 1991. I seriously do not understand: why does Russia today feels so responsible for the crimes that the Soviet regime did? Russia was only part of this Soviet Union. By doing so it forces itself completely unnecessarily to still print twisted versions of the WWII history, which by the way only serve its real ill-wishers, the US elite and some of their cronies in Europe. I think that the Russian government should really finally revise that aspect, and cut away with this old habit left over from the past Soviet times, to twist its own history about WWII, because it is actually counterproductive and harming Russia, and the Russian people, while glorifying the West, which although did take part in the war, did much less fighting and took much less losses than the Soviet people did. So, yes I do think that such a step could seriously turn the way the Baltic States perceive Russia, and instead of fear, they would see real friend and partner in the face of Russia, and thus their own internal policies will drastically change towards their Russian minorities.
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You're not rad at all 12 August, 2008, 07:32 Swedish nazis occupied the USSR. This is frickin' hilarious. The Soviet Union killed more people than any other state ever before or since. I hate the nazis as much as the next guy but the communists were way worse. I hope you're one of a kind, and that most russians aren't as dumb as you. That would be sad. I'm pretty sure they're not though.
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Marzipan6 16 August, 2008, 00:24 Russia freely entered into treaty obligations with a small neighbour which does not share its totalitarian values and has no interest in being a pawn to Russia’s imperialistic ambitions. It then demonizes and provokes that neighbour incessantly, even while promising that it does not want the destruction of its neighbour’s sovereignty. It seeks and is granted permission to station troops on its neighbour’s soil, but it quickly exceeds the allowed quota, and uses them to overthrow the neighbour’s government and install its own occupation regime. Meanwhile, it loudly and self-righteously proclaims that its only aim is to help oppressed peoples, and that it is not occupying anyone. The Baltics in 1940 or the Caucasus in 2008? Yes.
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Marzipan6 17 August, 2008, 03:42 James, I’m afraid your ignorance is showing. You write, “It is Estonian (and Lithuanian) law prohibit even 2nd or 3rd generation ethnic Russians Estonian citizenship.” First of all, no one’s law prohibits anyone, Russians or anyone else, from gaining Estonian or Lithuanian citizenship. They merely need to satisfy the entirely standard requirements which all countries require of foreigners to be naturalized. Approximately 140,000 Russians have gained Estonian citizenship by naturalization since 1991, so please do just a little bit of research before you publicly post nonsense. Secondly, all Russians who were residents of Lithuania in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed were granted automatic Lithuanian citizenship. There is no citizenship issue there. However, you will notice that Moscow’s relations with Lithuania are just as hostile as they are with Estonia. This is because by their mere existence, Lithuania, Estonia (and Latvia) thwart Moscow's dreams of restored empire.
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Marzipan6 17 August, 2008, 03:52 Punkara writes, “I seriously do not understand: why does Russia today feels so responsible for the crimes that the Soviet regime did?” This is because cosmetic niceties aside, emotionally and nationally Russia identifies itself 100% with the Soviet Union, and feels unresolved guilt for its Soviet past. The Soviet Union was simply Russian imperialism writ large, and any real, imagined or implied criticism of the Soviet Union immediately offends against Russia’s self-concept and makes it feel edgy. There is a great deal of Soviet-era Russian bastardry against millions of people and about a dozen nations which is yet unresolved and not brought to any closure, and contemporary Russia's way of dealing with it is simply to try to tip-toe past it as if it wasn't there. Why is Russia that way? Because it unfortunately doesn’t have the maturity to live as a normal nation in the real world. It prefers its resentments of wounded honour and fantasies of exaggerated grandeur to living in reality.
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Sevodnya_Net 17 August, 2008, 13:35 One of the Johns said: "If Stalin was a fool by entering into a deal with Hitler than who was Chamberlain." Chamberlain, if you mean Neville, was a British PM, who indeed foolishly tried to appease the Nazis before the inevitable happened. At least, however, Chalmberlain's appeasement was based on a naive belief that you can get an honest agreement with a totalitarian dictator. Stalin's appeasement was in the belief that he could carve up parts of Europe between himself and his colleage in evil A. Hitler. Emil, or whoever it was I've forgotten now, seemed to be suggesting that Stalin started a war to rid the world of Nazism. He did no such thing. I may be a gibbering idiot with no knowledge of history, but I am aware of that fact.
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punkara 18 August, 2008, 01:59 The problem between the Baltic States and Russia directly reflects over the way the Russians are treated in these countries. Luckily, the problem between them is not territorial, but rather historical. 68 years ago they were invaded by what was then Stalin’s Soviet Union and were forced into this same Union. This should not be denied, forgotten, or omitted by Russia as it would be stupid, since it’s a known historical fact. Instead Russia seems to focus on their history from the moment the Red Army occupied them for a second time in 1944, while on its drive to Germany. This is the event that Russia contests and claims was liberation from Nazi occupation. But in reality, from the point of view of the people of these 3 states, both the Soviets and the Nazis were occupiers, which they were. Why do you think were the Nazis welcomed by these people, when they came in 1941? Because they saw the Nazis as their liberators, since they pushed back the Red army which had occupied them in 1940. The Germans using the situation, took advantage of the Baltic’s states strife to liberate their countries, and used the people against the Red army. These Baltic resistance people, were not Nazis, they just fought for their independence. In fact this whole philosophy which paints WWII into Evil = Nazis, and those who fought against them were therefore = to Good, is very wrong and unproductive. Because of this twisted history, last year there was serious problem between Russia and Estonia, over the re-location of a memorial! A Russian protester died tragically, which to me is a terrible prize to pay for this outrageous historical debate. This twisting of history, has long moved out of the books and articles, and poses a serious problem which took even a human live, but most of all represents the core problem between Russia and the Baltic States, and thus also puts the Russians there in unequal position, as the governments of these countries have no other tools to ensure their security. That was why they strove to enter into NATO and the EU, all of it because few “comrades” leftovers from the USSR in Moscow still refuse to admit what Stalin did occupy them back in 1940, and simply say: yes the USSR did invade you, for which we are sorry, but it was not our call, since Russia, just like all the other republics in the union, was a slave to the Georgian dictator and his plans. Such a sincere statement, would do miracles in the Russian-Baltic States’ relations, and would finally show them that they have nothing to fear from Moscow! Instead, today using this situation, the Georgians have turned Stalin’s home into a museum, and used Stalin’s decision to annex S Ossetia to Georgia from 1920’s, to attack it on few occasions since 1991.
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