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Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?
Marzipan6 14 May, 2008, 11:21 SEVODNYA_NET: I agree with you, some Soviet-era newcomers to Estonia who aren’t yet in the elderly stage of life where applicants for citizenship are exempt from a language test, yet who may be too old to find it particularly easy to learn another language, may now find themselves in a difficult situation if they want Estonian citizenship. However, these people have not been old throughout the decades that they have been in Estonia, and had they wanted to, they could have learned the language at any time. It was their own colonial-minded dispositions, and the interest, respect or lack of it that they had for their chosen country of residence for decades, that has helped bring them to the situation in which they currently find themselves. A lack of local citizenship really has no practical handicaps for them. All the social services that are available to everyone else are available in equal measure to them. They are free to vote in local elections, and so have an equal voice in the affairs of their immediate civic environment. They are free to travel on non-citizen Estonian passports to countries that recognize that document. And they can take out Russian citizenship at any time, and not jeopardize their residency in Estonia, nor their access to social services as a result. But not having made a commitment to Estonia, one thing they cannot do is politically shape the nation as a whole after their own image. Turning from discussing verifiable facts and simply airing my own opinion for the moment, in my view Estonia could have done more to emotionally reach out to its Russian-speaking population. This would probably mean a lot to Russians, who seem to be more emotionally oriented than the traditionally rather dour Estonians. However, emotionality is not strong suite of Estonians, and given Moscow’s ongoing hostile attitudes which are reflected by some (though by no means all) of the local Russian population, and given Estonians’ own very deep and unhealed psychological wounds of Stalinist terror and post-Stalinist repression, Estonians probably think they’ve done enough by establishing an inclusive legal and financial environment, and then leaving it up to everyone to find their own way within that framework. As well, there are so few Estonians – only a million – and the task of re-building their nation is so colossal, that there are many important things which ought to be priorities, but there is simply not enough time nor energy available for everything that ought to be a priority. The couple of nights of unrest last spring have had one good effect in that it jolted both communities into an awareness that their future and that of their children is interwoven, and there seems to be an increased effort on the part of each to make that future work. Unfortunately, actions do have automatic consequences, and Soviet Moscow’s outrageous brutalities and post-Soviet Moscow’s ongoing hostilities can now mean some difficulties for some of the colonists whom Moscow originally brought in for nation-destroying purposes. Soviet rule and its consequences have meant very much more than just “some difficulties” for the innocent Estonian population upon which it was imposed by force. This is not to say that anyone wants any equivalence of pay-back now. But if any one – Estonians, Russians or anyone else – wants to be part of the country, they really should be prepared to fit in to the country. The biggest help that Russia can give to its compatriots in Estonia is to change its attitude to one of genuine reconciliation and friendship. If relations with Moscow are genuinely cordial and if a mutual nation-to-nation understanding exists, this will quickly be also come to be reflected in internal communal relations. But for some reason, Russia finds it either undesirable or impossible to establish relations with its neighbours based on mutual respect and understanding, and thus continues to be surrounded by an arc of disaffected and wary neighbours, locked into a half-defensive pose, expecting Moscow’s next outrage against them. This kind of atmosphere complicates the lives of everyone in Estonia.
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Marzipan6 14 May, 2008, 12:05 IP: What the Baltics may or may not have achieved in the years since re-independence is really not the issue, as I already mentioned in a previous post. However, there are some matters of fact on which you touched that I do with to comment on. Please lose the idea that my views on Estonia and the Baltics are based on propaganda. I have family in Estonia, and I understand their real life experiences very well. I have other family that lived through the Soviet occupation of 1940-41, the German occupation of 1941-44, and who fled for their lives from the returning Red terror. They did so not because they had any German sympathies or connections, but because they were ordinary civilians in a population against which Moscow was waging the most ghastly war of terror imaginable. I have also read widely from many historical sources, both Eastern and Western, about the Soviet Union and Soviet history. And most importantly, I have visited Estonia numerous times myself. The first time, in 1992, I was absolutely bewildered and horrified at the decrepitude, the poverty, the crumbling, grey infrastructure, and the strained and stressed people who would not even look you in the eye as you passed them on the street, so fresh were the scars of Soviet terror still on them. On subsequent visits I have seen a progressive and almost miraculous transformation of the land. On my last visit, last summer, to my eyes Estonia was indistinguishable from some of the less developed parts of Western Europe. For the first time, it struck me as a normal country of normal people, living normal lives, just like everyone else. In short, Estonia was becoming itself again. Until then, the truly awful legacy of 50 years of Soviet terror, abuse and misrule was impossible to miss. But as I’ve said in other posts, Estonia is still a long way from being what it would have been if its Soviet experience had never happened. In 1939 Estonia’s standard of living was marginally higher than Finland’s; today, its per capita GNP is 61% of Finland’s. It will take at least another couple of decades before Estonia catches up to where it would have been had Russia stayed on its own side of the border. Oh, and by the way: • Most Baltic young people are not abroad; • There is no indication that those who are will not come back; • The structures of the EU are in place to encourage travel, and the Estonian government encourages its people to take advantage of these opportunities; • Estonia has always fully paid its bills, including all its gas bills. Unlike the Russian town of Ivangarod, just across the border from Estonia, whose water and sewage services are provided by Estonia, and which was faced with a real crisis about 10 years ago because it would not pay its bills. At that time, the town sent an official petition to central Russian authorities asking for permission to secede from Russia, and to become part of Estonia. Bet you didn’t know that. You would not be surprised to learn, though, that Moscow turned the suggestion down. There is one more factual inaccuracy in your post on which I would like to comment. You liken British colonialism to Russian colonialism However, the two don’t compare. Even though I don’t defend any kind of colonialism, the fact remains that Britain took territories that never were nations in the modern sense, and eventually made them into nations. In Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, Russia took countries that were full nations in the modern sense, legally absolutely co-equal with it, destroyed their sovereignty and did all in its power to ensure that it would remain destroyed forever. As for your rhetorical question of “Shall we all have a go at Germany now and ask for some compensation” – Germany already has paid compensation, both to Israel and Estonia, and to many other countries. And much more importantly, Germany has sincerely apologised for crimes that its people committed against others under the Nazi flag, and has achieved genuine reconciliation with them. Russia has generally not done the equivalent in regard to countries and peoples who were the victims of crimes that Russians committed against them under the Soviet flag.
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fred 14 May, 2008, 12:08 misha . 3 things came out of what you wrote : 1° it is useless to try to explain to marzipan that the world isn't in white and black , but more in an infinite shades of Grey . ( there isn't the good on the right and the bad on the left .!or no one can pretend something is 100% good or 100% bad !) but wait a second . to see things in white or black . isn't it already something from the Russian temper ? ;-) (if you go to Russia , and say to some peoples things like " all Russian women aren't beautiful and no , they have nothing particular in comparision with others abroad ." most Russians would come with only a question " don't you like Russia ?" . ! ;-) ) 2° the work you have done to type all the gas/oil pipeline is quite impressive . yes Ukraine and the Baltic are going to be avoided by those pipelines . yes in the case of Ukraine , it is going to be just an other drain in public finances , which are already very far from being rosy . yes for Baltic countries , it is going to be a problem and the E.U. is probably going to have to undergo some introspection as "why did we get them in so fast and so unprepared ?" (unprepared in this meaning = first settle your dispute with your neighbors : about borders , minorities , rights of persons etc THEN join , not the opposite ! exactly the same than Cyprus , if the condition would have been to settle the dispute over the land , Cyprus would be now a peaceful re-united island !) has you well notified , USSR was selling natural resources to other republics of the federation on a discount price . so if things are so bad coming from Russia and USSR : i wonder why so many are infuriated when the NOW Russia want to scrap-off the old Soviet deals on Gas and Oil ?? (may be it is an other example where things are very rarely white OR black ! in that respect , for many , it has been a blessing to be part of the USSR and to be able to pay for gas or oil only a fraction of what a Mr doe from Western Europe is paying .?) last : When Gorbatchev tried to implement perestroika and glasnot , he made a crucial mistake = he forgot that the line in between General interest and private interest is extremely thin . it is very easy to find some to tell you what YOU should do for the general interest . it is very rare to see them doing themselves what they told you to do ! this is where the Soviet-Union was doomed right from the beginning , not because of ideology , but from simple Human Nature . ( or : when you have to give away = it is always too much but when you are getting = it is never enough .!) so getting back to question : are Russians mistreated in Baltic ? yes ! absolutely ! the simple fact of NOT having a passport from the country most have lived their entire life in , is already a mistreatment ! and it says a lot on the amateurish way of dealing with such topics of the European Union .! The E.U. laws prescribe a special protection for ethnics minorities on its soil . where is the protection ? did they tried to find any solution ? so it is perfectly normal for Britons to have a local tax leviated to officially "teach" Britons to younger generation . (where it should be a private matter and is supposed to be Brussels responsibilities ) or the Schwab's minority is not refused a German passport on the ground they speak a "funny" german !! so one and only rule should be everywhere in E.U. , if not it is ONLY a political convenience ! (not to be taken for what i am not : I AM an European Union citizen !)
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Sevodnya_Net 14 May, 2008, 20:05 Marzipan6 - thanks for your reply. I hope that some of those who have been hurling unwarranted abuse at you will note in particular your paragraph 4.
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George.D. 15 May, 2008, 03:17 There was no bigger looser from the Soviet Union then Russia was, first in terms of human life's there were more Russians killed then all others combined, and even more, Russia territorially was pushed more East by the Soviets. redrawing the borders of Russia and giving it to her neighbors in the west (Ukraine and Byelorussia's), Also internally Russia was damaged, by having the Soviets create Republics with in Russia based on ethnicity, and by doing so, weakening the Russian State , .to blame Russia alone for the Soviet Union its nonsense, if the neighbors are interested of correcting the wrongs, what about giving the lands back, starting with Crimea,. As to the question "Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states"?.Best is for RT to go there and ask the local community, what are there problems, what are the difficulties they are facing, do they feel discriminated, do they see a future, what should happen to bring Estonians and the small ethnic Russian community more together, dialogue will bring answers.
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SrpskiCrnogorac 15 May, 2008, 09:01 "But for some reason, Russia finds it either undesirable or impossible to establish relations with its neighbours based on mutual respect and understanding." And I see it the other way around, namely that the Baltic countries are not interested in good relations, while I am not sure in how far it is motivated by own revanchism or by following US policy. I already mentioned the case of "Mazeikiu Nafta". As long as the criminal and western ally Khodorkovsky owned the refinery, it was no problem, but when other Russians wanted to buy it, it was forbidden and sold to the polish trading company "Orlen", which can´t guarantee the oil supply and by that Lithuania harmed itself. Or granting asylum and citizenship to people like Igor Babenko, although the court of Vilnius first ruled that he should be extradited to Russia. And of course the Nato membership. I think that some points were clearly motivated by following US orders, while the Balts don´t complain about being US puppets, but immediately cry when Russia tries to influence their politics via people like Uspaskikh. Furthermore I find it a bit strange that Marzipan6 is so strongly referring to the destruction of Estonia´s sovereignity by the Soviet Union, but when one looks into history, since the 14th century or longer Estonia was never independent (under Swedish, German and Russian rule) but thanks to the Bolshevik revolution the SU recognised Estonia´s independence. But I agree with the observation that Russia began to follow a tougher foreign policy, but this is clearly the reaction to western aggressions in various world regions and its try to contain Russia´s influence, with the result, that new borders will be drawn in ex Soviet Republics. And here I find it a pity, that after Ukraine will fall apart, our historic Slavic capital Kiev could become part of the Carolingian Empire.
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Marzipan6 15 May, 2008, 10:14 REGULAR_JOHN: You confidently tell us, “Marzipan6 I am sure that if I had trawled through Wikipedia like you I could no doubt find some historical links between the Baltic’s and Britain you seem to think you are the font of all knowledge this give you a very arrogant tone.” I have a sound grasp of matters Estonian that's got very little to do with Wikipedia, and I don’t think I actually need to apologise for that. It seems to me that it is rather a matter of arrogance if “Wikipedia scholars” confidently pontificate about things of which they have no real understanding. There does seem to be some of those around, but what can you do? Nor am I aware of any tears, neither crocodile nor any other kind, in my posts or in Baltic communications generally. Referring to the realities of historical events, and repudiating those who distort these, is simply a matter of presenting facts. And thank you for your advice in the last paragraph of your post, John, about Baltic people staying away from Britain. Don’t recall as we actually asked for the advice, though. But British people needn’t stay at home, and will continue to be most welcome in the Baltics. In 2007 140,230 British tourists stayed at commercial accommodation in Estonia -- don't have statistics on how many British visitors there were in total. I do have the figure for total Russian tourists, though: 300,592. And that was a bad year, remember? Guess they really hated all the oppression and stuff there. Total foreign tourists in Estonia for last yet numbered 1.9 million – not bad for a country with a population of 1.3 million. Why don’t you join them some time soon? Most enjoy Estonia hugely, and I suspect that you will, too. It will probably help some of your preconceived mistaken ideas fall away, too, and that’s got to be good.
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Marzipan6 15 May, 2008, 10:27 Oops, I think I overstated last year’s Russian tourist numbers in Estonia by 16,000. The number I quoted in my earlier reply to Regular_John was for 2006. 2007 numbers were reduced by the small margin of 16,000. That’s all that the Bronze Soldier and the Kremlin’s anti-Estonian campaign managed to keep away. Pity – they would have enjoyed themselves had they come.
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Regular_John 15 May, 2008, 11:08 Marzipan6 re- your comments I have visited Estonia numerous times myself. The first time, in 1992, I was absolutely bewildered and horrified at the decrepitude, the poverty, the crumbling, grey infrastructure, and the strained and stressed people who would not even look you in the eye as you passed them on the street, so fresh were the scars of Soviet terror still on them. Sorry now I really am confused your first visit to Estonia was in 1992 after they became an Independent Country so you really have no first hand knowledge of life their during the Soviet era I see well let me help you out My Wife is one of your hated Russian oppressors and she lived in Estonia in 1987 during the Soviet era this is what she has told me. In her home City of Vladikavkaz she would have to stand in line for hours to buy basic goods the people would try to buy in bulk as the goods may not appear in the shops again for many days. When she went to Estonia the shops were always full of goods every day so she only bought what she needed she was shocked and delighted to see people living in houses with beautiful little gardens. Compared to her life in Vladikavkaz she described the time she spend in Estonia in the following way “it was like living in Paradise” Now maybe life in France Britain or America may have been at a higher standard during that time but this was her reality as a Russian living in the Soviet Union during 1987. Russian citizens suffered more hardship under the Soviet system than Estonians. The Soviet Union is no more Russia is building a new Nation I suggest you stop living in the past especially given the fact you never personally lived through it.
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Marzipan6 15 May, 2008, 11:30 MISHA’S long post can reasonably be summarised as follows: 1. The Soviet Union’s leadership included non-Russians, and therefore Russians bear no responsibility for any of its crimes. 2. The Soviet Union also suppressed aspects of Russian culture, and therefore Russians in the service of the Soviet government never oppressed anyone else’s culture. 3. Bolsheviks had supposedly good motives, therefore crimes which Russians and others committed in the service of those motives can be overlooked. 4. The Soviet government made massive economic investments, and this excuses their occupation of neighbouring countries. 5. Soviet Moscow cut off the occupied countries’ natural avenues of trade and unnaturally tied them in to Soviet infrastructure, but post-Soviet Moscow has zero responsibility to assist them in their re-establishment of normal trading patterns. 6. Because Russia eventually “declared independence” from the Soviet Union, Russians who illegally occupied, terrorized and oppressed neighbouring countries under the Soviet flag bear no responsibility for anything. 7. Post-Soviet Russia is perfectly justified to accept or reject responsibility for aspect of its Soviet past as if it were were shopping at a supermarket – a little of this, some of that, but none of the other, thank you. 8. Russia’s neighbours clamoured to join NATO after 1991 not because they were scared to death of a future revitalized Russia resuming their occupation and their oppression, but rather, because the US arranged it all. 9. Russia has made no formal claims for the territory of any former Soviet lands, and therefore it has none. Just like the Soviet Union made no claims on the Baltics prior to 1940, and even at that late date, insisted that would honour and respect the sovereignty of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. And for the purposes of this exercise, we’ll completely overlook what’s currently happening in Georgia. 10. Russia is a reliable business partner. Trust it. Well done, Misha. We’re convinced. There are several further issues I’d like to comment on in a little more detail. You write of the Soviet (read, “Russia’s”) economic investment, including in its occupied territories. In the case of the Baltics, the following points can be made about it. • That investment was not in the Baltics’ interests, but in Moscow’s interests. It was not designed to meet the Baltics’ needs, but sacrificed these in the interests of Moscow’s economic, military, social and ideological imperatives, grossly damaging the Baltics’ environment, economy and society as a result. Rest assured that the Baltics didn’t need large-scale heavy industry back then, and they don’t need it now. • That investment was shoddy from its very inception, of terrible quality, and aesthetically ugly, and made little rational economic sense. • Even with the investment, by 1991 Moscow had reduced the Baltics to the same lamentable condition of economic disaster to which it had already brought all of Russia. Much of what Russia built, Estonia has had to pull down, or significantly re-furbish. Much of what remains is, in the most literal sense of the word, a blight on the landscape, but Estonia will have to put up with it for a while longer, because it cannot totally re-make itself overnight. And as for the Soviet collapse itself, because of the absurd economics of the Soviet system, and because of the enormous additional strains which the arms race was placing on it, the Soviet entity would have been in deep crisis by the 1990s in any case. But it needn’t have collapsed and ceased to exist. Most of its constituent parts had no notion or ambition of an independent national existence, and when the Soviet entity did collapse, most of its constituent parts immediately coalesced back into the so-called Commonwealth of Independent States – so little ambition and imagination did they have of any truly independent existence. All, that is, except the Baltics. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania never considered themselves as legitimate parts of the Soviet Union to begin with, but as occupied countries, like Denmark or Belgium or the Netherlands, only whose illegal occupation was lasting a bit longer than of those countries. The Baltics always yearned for freedom, worked for it by whatever means was available, and by the late 1980s explicitly and openly lobbied for total separation, and in fact achieved it in August of 1991. The still-existing Soviet Union recognized their independence in September of 1991. But now the precedent had been set, and if the Baltics could break free, why not everyone else – and three months later they did, even though, unlike the Baltics, they did not even know what to do with their independence when they got it. The point is, that in illegally swallowing up the free Baltic countries in 1940, Moscow embraced the instruments of the eventual destruction of its own Soviet Union. If the occupation had ended in 1945, or really at any point up to the early 1980s, the Soviet crisis of 1991 would have still been severe, but it would have been unlikely to have resulted in the destruction of the Soviet Union, since there would have been no agitation from within for disintegration, and no tutelage by the Baltics of other constituent “republics” in the art of doing a runner. Elegant poetic justice, I think.
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Regular_John 15 May, 2008, 13:03 You would think that Countries like the Baltic States who were under the control of an oppressive system would on gaining independence learn from this experience and would never want to inflict this oppression on others. But what do we see? let me tell you Estonia is a Nation that denies citizenship to people born within its boarders it give ethnic Russians passports that say “alien” on the front it does not allow them the democratic right to vote in a general election it punishes innocent people who suffered just as much as they did during the Soviet era They are part of the EU but enact laws that are totally opposite to the EU's belief in equality, which is a foundation stone on which the union was formed. They are a disgrace and an embarrassment to other EU countries. That’s all I have left to say on this subject.
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Gazza 16 May, 2008, 06:08 I think the Russian nation should be glad to get rid of the Baltic States and Eastern Euro countries like Poland. Russia can be a powerful, wealthy and independant country now that she has shed her useless blood-sucking dependants. Good riddance.
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Sam 16 May, 2008, 09:11 Misha your posts are long and painful to read,but its funny that there is a pot on this forum calling the kettle black:)
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fred 16 May, 2008, 10:08 marzipan . yes , you are right ! bad things have been done by soviets . but they definitely killed more russians than any other ethnicity within the USSR . and you keep referring on past . what about future ? or just plainly now ? if mankind would be still looking for the first man who made the first move in going out of the cave , mankind would be still living in caves . and about tourists going to Baltic . : last time i talked with someone actually LIVING there , he was not very happy about all the european men going to the baltics on sex-tour . especially on the big lack of respect some E.U. citizens show , once there !!
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johann 16 May, 2008, 11:27 Dear friends,it seems to me that I am forced to change the tone of my comments,it seems to me that is much better to criticize russian politics from the past and from today,it seems to me that there are some TABOO’s wich cannot be discussed on this forum either.And that is not Russia.You might guess the country’s name ,thus she’s not an independent state…Sorry,sorry for this „little” inconvinient.I have tried to give Marzipan some suggestions but that was not allowed,sorry.So he can continue with his volumes in peace.The same rule is here too,you can say everything but not really,some thruth is hurting some peoples mind , and they claim they are building a democratic society.On wich bases ? on liers ? And now the other ton : the Baltic states have the legal and justified right as any other civilized and free country to cellebrate what they want to.The veterans are veterans whatever the side of the barricade they had fought in the ww2.Are they to blame for this? It’s nonsense.A soldier is a soldier and he is an executor of political will.The wars are made by politicians but fought by soldiers.Therefore,is sayed :”in eternity the soldiers are equal „ and therefore we have to respect every military cemetery whereever it is.The old veterans –russians(soviets) germans,americans,japaneeze,others,have great respect to each-other,why? Because they learn the lessons of history on their skin. Regards, johann
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Marzipan6 16 May, 2008, 15:05 Regular_John edifies us with the following thoughts: “You would think that countries like the Baltic States who were under the control of an oppressive system would on gaining independence learn from this experience and would never want to inflict this oppression on others.” And, of course, he is quite right The Baltics have not, do not, and never, never will inflict on anyone the almost unimaginable horrors which Soviet Russians visited on them and on their countries for most of the last Century. You can read about that in http://www.hot.ee/evlliit/okup_2.htm , if you have a sufficiently strong stomach. And as John well knows, neither he nor anyone else is able to read anything even remotely similar in any current news source pertaining to happenings in the Baltics. What he can read from current sources is information about the Baltics granting citizenship to hundreds of thousands of their one-time invaders and oppressors, and their descendants, and living peacefully with them as neighbours, as fellow-citizens, and not infrequently as relatives by marriage. Isn’t that great, John!
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Marzipan6 16 May, 2008, 15:12 The Baltics were never Russia’s dependents, Gazza. Only Russia’s captives. They have always had a higher standard of living than Russia, whether in Tsarist times, during the inter-war period, during the Soviet era, and since. As a matter of fact, since re-independence Estonia has been a provider of foreign aid to Russian regions adjacent to its borders, providing funds for infrastructure, medical aid and other development projects. And the Estonian Red Cross has also provided summer holidays in Estonia for several years, with all expenses paid, for groups of children of Beslan and their carers. Did you know that?
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Marzipan6 16 May, 2008, 15:18 Fred, if you read my posts carefully, you will see how often I stress the Baltics’ orientation to the future, not to the past. Only those aspects of the past become relevant which Moscow uses as a means by which to threaten the Baltics’ present and future. Once Russia stops its backward-looking anti-Baltic hostility and genuinely seeks reconciliation, thereby securing the future like Germany has done for its one-time victims, the past need never be mentioned again.
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Marzipan6 16 May, 2008, 15:51 Regular_John reports observations of his Russian wife, relating to the Soviet era, of how she thought that Estonia was “like a paradise” compared to Russia. Her comments are fairly accurate, John. Even during the first Russian occupation of 1940-41, with war-time privations and shortages already happening, the occupying Russian troops often expressed their amazement at the wealth they found in Estonia. Not that Estonia was particularly wealthy -- but the Russia from which they had come was particularly poor. There is a story I have heard from my parents as a child, and which I’ve subsequently also read from other sources, of a time in 1940 when the leading Russian occupation authorities wanted, for propaganda purposes, to conduct a kind of civic ball in Tallinn, to show how kindly they were inclined towards the population that they were oppressing. Some of the Russian officials had their wives along with them, and the wives went on a shopping spree in war-impoverished Tallinn, buying all the most luxurious things they could find. One of the things they found – or thought they found – was elegant ball gowns. So they bought them, and turned up at the function wearing them. Only problem was, that they weren’t ball gowns, but nighties!!! Those high-ranking people had apparently never seen anything like that back in Russia, and they, too, just like your wife, thought that they were now in paradise. Immediately after the was, with Estonia prostrate and smashed, hundreds upon hundreds of "bag men", as they came to be known, descended upon the country from Leningrad, equipped with every kind of bag you could imagine, into which they stuffed everything they could loot from Estonian shops and homes, to take back home. Even then, Estonia was still wealthier than Russia. Throughout the decades of the post-War Soviet occupation, even though Estonia’s standard of living was absolutely miserable by comparison with the West and by comparison with what it had enjoyed up to 1939, it nevertheless was still consistently higher than in Russia itself. The industriousness and work ethic of ordinary people accomplished this, despite the absurdities and terrors of the Communist system. That is yet another reason why the occupation authorities found it so easy to bring in hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Russians in, to flood the country. They all thought they were living in paradise. But this is not a comment on the wealth of Estonia, but rather, on the horrible relative poverty of Russia itself. When Estonia re-gained its independence, more than a third of its Russian population voluntarily left, apparently not being able to deal with the prospect of no longer being able to live as the colonial masters of the land. Those who stayed have shown no interest in leaving because, once again, their prosperity is far greater Estonia than it would be in Russia. Still for all that, Soviet Estonia was a decrepit, broken-sown, shabby place, made that way by the system and by the values which Moscow imposed by force on the country. As I mentioned in a previous post, when I first visited there in 1992 I was absolutely shocked and depressed by what I saw there. It was like nothing I had ever seen in all my life before. Other visitors, whether overseas Estonians or complete foreigners, were left with exactly the same terrible impression. Only Russians felt differently, because their point of reference was Russia itself, which was even worse. Regular_John tells us that "Russian citizens suffered more hardship under the Soviet system than Estonians." Of course they did. But the difference is, that this is what they did to themselves. About a decade ago, when the current Estonian President Ilves was Foreign Minister, a delegation of visiting Russian journalist were interviewing him. They pointed out what John (and others) have often said, namely, that Russians suffered even more under Soviet rule than Estonians did, the implication being thast what is Estonia therefore complaining about? Ilves replied that when Russians murder, imprison and impoverish other Russians, that is their own affair -- but who asked them to come to Estonia, and do the same there? The journalists' response was a shocked silence, so far removed was that kind of thinking from their own-world view. And apparently from John's world-view, too.
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Marzipan6 16 May, 2008, 16:01 Johann, there have been some of my submitted posts which RT hasn’t published on the Forum, either. I don’t complain about that. I have genuine admiration for the freedom of expression that RT does uphold. I try not to be rude, and not to be inaccurate in the things that I write, but I do recognize that some of it must be very hard for Russians to see and read regardless. I regret that, as I don’t wish to offend anyone. My sole aim is to try to facilitate understanding, which can be the basis of a better future for everyone. I have had only pleasant relations with Russians I have met, whether in Estonia or elsewhere, and there is no reason why the same cannot come to be true for the two countries as a whole. But friendship and respect have to be based on truth; they cannot be based on make-believe. And so as I have opportunity, I try to highlight relevant realities through my posts. Meanwhile, if RT chooses not to publish some of my posts, how can I possibly complain? It is their website, they pay the bills for it, I don’t.
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