Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?, page 45


DD 3 January, 2010, 14:27	Ok Marzipan, I might do so, but only with you as my personal guide !! :) Greetings permalink quote 0 DD
Marzipan6 4 January, 2010, 10:06	Ask anyone you meet on the streets, DD, and they will probably be delighted to help! I don’t live in Estonia, my family having fled from there to the West during the War, but I visit from time to time. I don’t speak any Russian, but Russian babushkas, who don’t speak any Estonian, seem to think I look friendly, and occasionally start up a conversation with me on the footpath. They carry on in Russian and I haven’t got a clue what they’re talking about, I respond in Estonian and they equally don’t know what I’m on about, but we both have a smile on our faces, and in a way we understand each other perfectly. If we get on fine then you and some Estonian (or Russian) that you happen to ask for information in a language that is mutually understandable (English is widely understood) should get on great together. permalink quote +1 Marzipan6
DD 5 January, 2010, 16:28	No,it has to be you !! :)) Who else there on the street can help me to verify all that you write !! Even if you not live in Estonia, you seem to be taking your case with major care... so I can't imagine elseone who will be better for the job !! ;) permalink quote 0 DD
Marzipan6 6 January, 2010, 00:05	Joking aside, there is a serious point that I’d like to take the opportunity to make, DD. Please don’t assume that the material I present is some sort of hidden, esoteric stuff that one needs a post-graduate university degree to uncover or understand. What I write is absolutely common knowledge amongst not even any Estonian, but any Baltic person. Although Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia differ in many ways, they have a common experience of Russia and are targets together of Moscow’s ongoing unfriendly policies and of massive Russian misinformation. The things I write throw a spotlight on Russia’s Baltic policies, and challenge the misinformation that one commonly encounters in Russian official and media views regarding those countries. I find that people who are oriented towards Moscow’s views on such matters mostly don’t know what to do with the information I provide. It contradicts so diametrically their received wisdom that many cannot believe it is true. Yet I provide facts, figures and verification which they equally cannot overthrow, as even the merest research shows that these are true. In response, some just get angry, while others become perplexed and assume that the subject is so confusing that it is impossible to understand anyway. I repeat, anything I write in regard to Russia’s involvement with the Baltics, whether past or present, is absolutely common knowledge throughout the Baltics, because those realities are part of the people’s past and present experience of Russia. So to get back to the point of your post, you won’t need me in Estonia at all. Any Estonian you meet will tell you pretty much the same kind of things that I do. And if there, you will be able to confirm with your own eyes whether or not they tell the truth. permalink quote +1 Marzipan6
Marzipan6 6 January, 2010, 23:51	Here’s a scandalous example of how Russia mistreats its own people who dare to holiday in Estonia. Around 100,000 Russian tourists visit Estonia each year, apparently much to the displeasure of the Kremlin, which does what it can to limit all trade with that country. New Year and Christmas is a specially popular time for Russian visitors, and many choose to drive across the border point at the Estonian city of Narva. However, Russian border control makes the experience as difficult as possible. They require cars travelling into Estonia to wait in line for up to 6 hours in the freezing winter weather. Meanwhile, they hold up cars returning to Russia for more than 14 hours!!! On the Estonian side, Narva provides a booking service for returning Russian visitors, for a place in the line to be kept for them, and they join the line shortly before crossing the border. But no such service exists on the Russian side. When interviewed, tourists say they have no complaints whatever about their stay in Estonia, and consistently say that they thoroughly enjoyed it. But the whole experience is spoiled by Russian border controls. But private motorists have nothing at all to complain about in comparison to truck drivers. Trucks entering Russia from Estonia have to wait in line between two days and a week, due to Russian border guards disruptionary actions. I do not have information about how long trucks need to line up when travelling from Russia to Estonia, but whatever delays occur are again caused by Russians, not Estonians. This is just one example amongst many of the astonishing behaviour of a country that says it wants to have normal relations with the Baltics. Almost worthy of an RT article. permalink quote +1 Marzipan6
John 8 January, 2010, 14:26	After the way that the USSR treated the Baltic States, it is not realistic to expect these small countries to want to return to Russian rule. For 50+ years they must have looked with longing towards Finland and Sweden - both wealthy and free. The recent difficulties should be seen against that background. While the Baltic states should treat all their people alike, whatever their ethnic origin, let us remember that the large Russian population is a result of Stalin and his successors encouraging large scale resettlement of Russians into the Baltic states. Similar to what the English did when they occupied Ireland 400 years ago! permalink quote 0 John
Krists 25 February, 2010, 22:01	It's really ridiculous how so many foreigners who have commented here believe they can speak on the subject without having any knowledge of the historical context or details that matter. I appreciate all the unbiased opinions, though. The problem exists and it's a two-way street. Latvians must become loyal to Russians as members of our society while Russians must become loyal to Latvia as a country and realize they are co-responsible for everything here. And the attitude ''why should I make a first step when my neighbor will not'' won't get us anywhere, everybody just have to use a common sense and simply act human. The more people will do it, the better the whole situation will get. There will always be some radicals on both sides, and I myself am often despised by both Latvian and Russian commentaries all over the internet, but you just gotta get over it and simply do the right thing, as cheesy as that sounds. I have to add, though, that everyday situation is nowhere near as bad as media or some people portray it, most Latvians I know have at least few Russian friends and vice versa. It only really gets bad when it comes to politics. And the whole national hatred exists predominanty because of the nationalist politicians from both sides who offer pathetic slogans instead of coming with real solutions for problems we have. permalink quote 0 Krists
Krists 25 February, 2010, 22:01	As for the citizenship question - I agree it is a shame of Latvia that we didn't give it to most Russians who were born here during Soviet times (then again, there's very complicated historical context), but Russians should just get over it and do the citizenship exam, for those who were born here it's so easy it's even ridiculous (mayor of Riga, Nil Ushakov, told on one interview they asked him what are the colours of Latvian flag on exam). I could prepare any Latvian Russian for the exam on two days. I know many Russians won't simply do it because they are too proud, but they just gotta accept the mistake of Latvian government. Yeah, they have done many stupid things, but which government hasn't? Soviet Union sent my whole family to Russia has never apologized for it, yet I won't mistreat everyday Russians for it. I'm sorry for my English, I'm sure I made some mistakes. :) permalink quote 0 Krists
Marzipan6 7 March, 2010, 03:34	Krists, just think of how vastly better the situation would be in Latvia and Estonia today if Moscow did not keep interfering and stirring up its ethnic compatriots in their preferred countries of residence. Think how it would be if Moscow had, at some stage, actually apologised for Soviet-era crimes against the Baltics instead of continuing to repeat, to this day, Stalin’s lie about them freely and legally joining the Soviet Union. Such a gesture of honesty, even if belated, would remove a huge psychological barrier between all Baltic people and Russia, and would remove the reason for some Russians’ demand for special status in the Baltics. Think of how it would be if Moscow then turned towards Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in genuine co-operation and partnership to together help heal the wounds of the Soviet era. Lithuania has no dispute with Russia over citizenship issues, as the Russian population there was small enough to be granted automatic citizenship without the future of Lithuania being endangered. Yet interestingly enough, Russia’s relations with Lithuania are no better than with the other Baltics. This is because the real matter at issue in Russian-Baltics relations is not citizenship, but unresolved Soviet Russian crimes of the past, and potential Russian imperial ambitions of the future. permalink quote +1 Marzipan6
SL 22 June, 2011, 10:14	How dare european unoin lecture other countries about treating minorities. These baltic countries(part of european union) are the only coutries in the world which calls a major minority group 'non citizens'. permalink quote -1 SL
Mullan 9 October, 2011, 20:08	If you have lived in a certain country for enough time and contribute to society in a positive manner there should be no problems with citizenship. I'm Irish and if we where treated like this there would be an up roar. permalink quote 0 Mullan
Vergil 25 January, 2012, 02:30	No Idea. Im an American? What is a minority there? Idiots? Genuises? People who whipe with water versus the people who whipe with paper? permalink quote 0 Vergil
Daniil- 4 February, 2012, 05:43	My grandparents came to Estonia during the Soviet era. My parents were born here already and so was I. Yet I still sometimes get comments about the past. And I'll be honest. Estonians here are desperately trying to promote their national identity and quietly slap the Slavics because of the long bad-bloodied past (The Russian Empire, The USSR). For instance you have this "Bronze Soldier of Tallinn" (wiki it) which was build to honour those soviet soldiers who "freed Tallinn". It was relocated, yet other countries like Austria (Soviet War Memorial in Vienna) haven't touched it and preserved it as a part of their history, no matter how much some of them would not like it. And soon after (a year or two later) "Cross of Liberty" was built not far off. It was raised in the memory of those who fought in the Estonian Independence War around the 1920s. I find it far from coincidence. Other than that, during WW2 when Germany conquered Estonia from the USSR the people here greeted them with open arms, held parades and all-in-all treated them as liberators. What they didn't know was that Germany had no real plan for this area and what they did was extract Estonia. Resources, money, etc. So, right now, as a young adult I have a really cold impression of my own country. Sadly or gladly, who knows. permalink quote 0 Daniil-
hitch69 21 March, 2012, 20:42	The question was: Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?The answer is: I certainly hope so. Ask the Syrian people who want respect and equality how they feel. At least you lot aren't burying your kids and wives. So you should thank these Baltic states for their restraint and humanity. Something you actively oppose for your brothers and sisters in the middle east. Hypocrisy writ big. I hope your people suffer a thousand times over the torments every child FEELS asunder the boot of your dear friend Bashir Al Assad. After all, you need to keep selling your guns and bombs and the voice of oppression. How ignorant are you? permalink quote 0 hitch69
neris 16 April, 2012, 15:38	I do agree Marzipan6 with comments. I'm Lithuanian from Vilnius. I have to say, I’ve never witnessed any mistreatment of Russian, Polish or other ethnicities. In Vilnius to this day people speak among each other in Lithuanian, Russian or Polish. Most Russian people speak perfect Lithuanian, have good jobs. My father is Lithuanian and Mother Polish. My sister is married to Russian born in Vilnius. We all speak fluently three languages and never had an argument about this. There are some people that they are never happy no matter what. But it is very wrong to say that Russians are mistreated in Lithuania. I’ve met a very nice Russian girl from Latvia. Yes she has this “alien” passport in Latvia, but her 10 year old son has normal Latvian passport. The reason she has “alien” passport that Russian people need to pass Language test. I’m sure this applies now in UK as well. No body complains here in UK about this. I have to admit that this Russian girl from Latvia, was born in Latvia, grew up but cannot speak Latvian. In MHO it is a shame. How can one survive with learning a language in a country they were born!!! They have only to blame themselves. permalink quote 0 neris

DD 3 January, 2010, 14:27

Ok Marzipan, I might do so, but only with you as my personal guide !! :) Greetings

permalink quote DD

Marzipan6 4 January, 2010, 10:06

Ask anyone you meet on the streets, DD, and they will probably be delighted to help! I don’t live in Estonia, my family having fled from there to the West during the War, but I visit from time to time. I don’t speak any Russian, but Russian babushkas, who don’t speak any Estonian, seem to think I look friendly, and occasionally start up a conversation with me on the footpath. They carry on in Russian and I haven’t got a clue what they’re talking about, I respond in Estonian and they equally don’t know what I’m on about, but we both have a smile on our faces, and in a way we understand each other perfectly. If we get on fine then you and some Estonian (or Russian) that you happen to ask for information in a language that is mutually understandable (English is widely understood) should get on great together.

permalink quote Marzipan6

DD 5 January, 2010, 16:28

No,it has to be you !! :)) Who else there on the street can help me to verify all that you write !! Even if you not live in Estonia, you seem to be taking your case with major care... so I can't imagine elseone who will be better for the job !! ;)

permalink quote DD

Marzipan6 6 January, 2010, 00:05

Joking aside, there is a serious point that I’d like to take the opportunity to make, DD. Please don’t assume that the material I present is some sort of hidden, esoteric stuff that one needs a post-graduate university degree to uncover or understand. What I write is absolutely common knowledge amongst not even any Estonian, but any Baltic person. Although Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia differ in many ways, they have a common experience of Russia and are targets together of Moscow’s ongoing unfriendly policies and of massive Russian misinformation. The things I write throw a spotlight on Russia’s Baltic policies, and challenge the misinformation that one commonly encounters in Russian official and media views regarding those countries. I find that people who are oriented towards Moscow’s views on such matters mostly don’t know what to do with the information I provide. It contradicts so diametrically their received wisdom that many cannot believe it is true. Yet I provide facts, figures and verification which they equally cannot overthrow, as even the merest research shows that these are true. In response, some just get angry, while others become perplexed and assume that the subject is so confusing that it is impossible to understand anyway. I repeat, anything I write in regard to Russia’s involvement with the Baltics, whether past or present, is absolutely common knowledge throughout the Baltics, because those realities are part of the people’s past and present experience of Russia. So to get back to the point of your post, you won’t need me in Estonia at all. Any Estonian you meet will tell you pretty much the same kind of things that I do. And if there, you will be able to confirm with your own eyes whether or not they tell the truth.

permalink quote Marzipan6

Marzipan6 6 January, 2010, 23:51

Here’s a scandalous example of how Russia mistreats its own people who dare to holiday in Estonia. Around 100,000 Russian tourists visit Estonia each year, apparently much to the displeasure of the Kremlin, which does what it can to limit all trade with that country. New Year and Christmas is a specially popular time for Russian visitors, and many choose to drive across the border point at the Estonian city of Narva. However, Russian border control makes the experience as difficult as possible. They require cars travelling into Estonia to wait in line for up to 6 hours in the freezing winter weather. Meanwhile, they hold up cars returning to Russia for more than 14 hours!!! On the Estonian side, Narva provides a booking service for returning Russian visitors, for a place in the line to be kept for them, and they join the line shortly before crossing the border. But no such service exists on the Russian side. When interviewed, tourists say they have no complaints whatever about their stay in Estonia, and consistently say that they thoroughly enjoyed it. But the whole experience is spoiled by Russian border controls. But private motorists have nothing at all to complain about in comparison to truck drivers. Trucks entering Russia from Estonia have to wait in line between two days and a week, due to Russian border guards disruptionary actions. I do not have information about how long trucks need to line up when travelling from Russia to Estonia, but whatever delays occur are again caused by Russians, not Estonians. This is just one example amongst many of the astonishing behaviour of a country that says it wants to have normal relations with the Baltics. Almost worthy of an RT article.

permalink quote Marzipan6

John 8 January, 2010, 14:26

After the way that the USSR treated the Baltic States, it is not realistic to expect these small countries to want to return to Russian rule. For 50+ years they must have looked with longing towards Finland and Sweden - both wealthy and free. The recent difficulties should be seen against that background. While the Baltic states should treat all their people alike, whatever their ethnic origin, let us remember that the large Russian population is a result of Stalin and his successors encouraging large scale resettlement of Russians into the Baltic states. Similar to what the English did when they occupied Ireland 400 years ago!

permalink quote John

Krists 25 February, 2010, 22:01

It's really ridiculous how so many foreigners who have commented here believe they can speak on the subject without having any knowledge of the historical context or details that matter. I appreciate all the unbiased opinions, though. The problem exists and it's a two-way street. Latvians must become loyal to Russians as members of our society while Russians must become loyal to Latvia as a country and realize they are co-responsible for everything here. And the attitude ''why should I make a first step when my neighbor will not'' won't get us anywhere, everybody just have to use a common sense and simply act human. The more people will do it, the better the whole situation will get. There will always be some radicals on both sides, and I myself am often despised by both Latvian and Russian commentaries all over the internet, but you just gotta get over it and simply do the right thing, as cheesy as that sounds. I have to add, though, that everyday situation is nowhere near as bad as media or some people portray it, most Latvians I know have at least few Russian friends and vice versa. It only really gets bad when it comes to politics. And the whole national hatred exists predominanty because of the nationalist politicians from both sides who offer pathetic slogans instead of coming with real solutions for problems we have.

permalink quote Krists

Krists 25 February, 2010, 22:01

As for the citizenship question - I agree it is a shame of Latvia that we didn't give it to most Russians who were born here during Soviet times (then again, there's very complicated historical context), but Russians should just get over it and do the citizenship exam, for those who were born here it's so easy it's even ridiculous (mayor of Riga, Nil Ushakov, told on one interview they asked him what are the colours of Latvian flag on exam). I could prepare any Latvian Russian for the exam on two days. I know many Russians won't simply do it because they are too proud, but they just gotta accept the mistake of Latvian government. Yeah, they have done many stupid things, but which government hasn't? Soviet Union sent my whole family to Russia has never apologized for it, yet I won't mistreat everyday Russians for it. I'm sorry for my English, I'm sure I made some mistakes. :)

permalink quote Krists

Marzipan6 7 March, 2010, 03:34

Krists, just think of how vastly better the situation would be in Latvia and Estonia today if Moscow did not keep interfering and stirring up its ethnic compatriots in their preferred countries of residence. Think how it would be if Moscow had, at some stage, actually apologised for Soviet-era crimes against the Baltics instead of continuing to repeat, to this day, Stalin’s lie about them freely and legally joining the Soviet Union. Such a gesture of honesty, even if belated, would remove a huge psychological barrier between all Baltic people and Russia, and would remove the reason for some Russians’ demand for special status in the Baltics. Think of how it would be if Moscow then turned towards Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in genuine co-operation and partnership to together help heal the wounds of the Soviet era. Lithuania has no dispute with Russia over citizenship issues, as the Russian population there was small enough to be granted automatic citizenship without the future of Lithuania being endangered. Yet interestingly enough, Russia’s relations with Lithuania are no better than with the other Baltics. This is because the real matter at issue in Russian-Baltics relations is not citizenship, but unresolved Soviet Russian crimes of the past, and potential Russian imperial ambitions of the future.

permalink quote Marzipan6

SL 22 June, 2011, 10:14

How dare european unoin lecture other countries about treating minorities. These baltic countries(part of european union) are the only coutries in the world which calls a major minority group 'non citizens'.

permalink quote SL

Mullan 9 October, 2011, 20:08

If you have lived in a certain country for enough time and contribute to society in a positive manner there should be no problems with citizenship. I'm Irish and if we where treated like this there would be an up roar.

permalink quote Mullan

Vergil 25 January, 2012, 02:30

No Idea. Im an American? What is a minority there? Idiots? Genuises? People who whipe with water versus the people who whipe with paper?

permalink quote Vergil

Daniil- 4 February, 2012, 05:43

My grandparents came to Estonia during the Soviet era. My parents were born here already and so was I. Yet I still sometimes get comments about the past.

And I'll be honest. Estonians here are desperately trying to promote their national identity and quietly slap the Slavics because of the long bad-bloodied past (The Russian Empire, The USSR).

For instance you have this "Bronze Soldier of Tallinn" (wiki it) which was build to honour those soviet soldiers who "freed Tallinn". It was relocated, yet other countries like Austria (Soviet War Memorial in Vienna) haven't touched it and preserved it as a part of their history, no matter how much some of them would not like it. And soon after (a year or two later) "Cross of Liberty" was built not far off. It was raised in the memory of those who fought in the Estonian Independence War around the 1920s. I find it far from coincidence.

Other than that, during WW2 when Germany conquered Estonia from the USSR the people here greeted them with open arms, held parades and all-in-all treated them as liberators. What they didn't know was that Germany had no real plan for this area and what they did was extract Estonia. Resources, money, etc.

So, right now, as a young adult I have a really cold impression of my own country. Sadly or gladly, who knows.

permalink quote Daniil-

hitch69 21 March, 2012, 20:42

The question was: Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?The answer is: I certainly hope so. Ask the Syrian people who want respect and equality how they feel. At least you lot aren't burying your kids and wives. So you should thank these Baltic states for their restraint and humanity. Something you actively oppose for your brothers and sisters in the middle east. Hypocrisy writ big. I hope your people suffer a thousand times over the torments every child FEELS asunder the boot of your dear friend Bashir Al Assad. After all, you need to keep selling your guns and bombs and the voice of oppression. How ignorant are you?

permalink quote hitch69

neris 16 April, 2012, 15:38

I do agree Marzipan6 with comments.

I'm Lithuanian from Vilnius. I have to say, I’ve never witnessed any mistreatment of Russian, Polish or other ethnicities.

In Vilnius to this day people speak among each other in Lithuanian, Russian or Polish. Most Russian people speak perfect Lithuanian, have good jobs.

My father is Lithuanian and Mother Polish. My sister is married to Russian born in Vilnius. We all speak fluently three languages and never had an argument about this. There are some people that they are never happy no matter what.

But it is very wrong to say that Russians are mistreated in Lithuania.

I’ve met a very nice Russian girl from Latvia. Yes she has this “alien” passport in Latvia, but her 10 year old son has normal Latvian passport. The reason she has “alien” passport that Russian people need to pass Language test. I’m sure this applies now in UK as well. No body complains here in UK about this. I have to admit that this Russian girl from Latvia, was born in Latvia, grew up but cannot speak Latvian. In MHO it is a shame. How can one survive with learning a language in a country they were born!!! They have only to blame themselves.

permalink quote neris

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