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Does NATO make the world more secure?
Marzipan6 10 April, 2008, 20:19 SrpskiCrnogorac, your comment that “In Europe the Baltics are known for their massive collaboration with the Nazis and their enthusiasm with which they participated in the crimes, similar to the Croats," are ridiculous and rather offensive, especially in regard to Estonia. The first mention of Estonia in history is by the Roman historian Tacitus approximately 2000 years ago. In the entire historical record from that time till today, there is not a single mention of inter-communal violence or of pogroms against anybody committed by Estonians. That can’t be any more different than the history of the Balkans. The Baltics are not the Balkans. What the Baltics are known for in Europe and elsewhere is their abhorrence of totalitarian oppression. Russian propaganda, for sad reasons of its own, prefers to misrepresent this as some kind of affinity for Naziism.
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oleg 10 April, 2008, 21:37 Fred,Afganistan.Liberation of the woman in that country.Ask them,I'm sure they are happier now, than when they were ruled by the Taliban! Thanks to NATO.
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johann 10 April, 2008, 22:44 Dear Elena,I think very few people now that despite romanians have fought against Russia in ww2,they weren't occupied by them,as far as I now the soviet army left Romania in early '50s,and Romania was the only state from former Warsaw Pact that has not participated in the "action"against Czechoslovakia,and despite this "rebellion" the USSR did not "punnished" Romania as well.This "bravery" of those communist romanian leaders is in a big contradiction with todays leaders as you say.
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fred 11 April, 2008, 09:17 marzipan . No , unfortunately i do believe what i write . What i was refering to : past is past ! if each one of us (countries or groups of individuals) keep on looking for who did what . we are ALL doomed !!! if it is polish blaiming the french/british to have failed to defend them Of the Nazis , the Soviets who have invaded them , then finally the E.U. to have had poland to wait for 10 years at the entrance (don't laugh too quickly , this is talks i've heard myself in poland.) or the batlics peoples complaining about no responsabilities taken by anyone (yes , i mean the ones deported by soviets AND the ones who joined the Waffen SS willingly .) or the germans who inhabited in past the Suddenten region (checsk republic , now) who were kicked out of theirs house and farms by soviets soldiers just because they were germans . it makes no differences !!! past is past ! what are we trying to build a better future ? Building-up Nato ? in the way " we are so much friends . don't take offenses we keep a gun pointed on your head . no , you are NOT allowed to do the same at us , we are friends .aren't we ??" or "your cousin killed my cousin in reaction to your uncle killing my uncle because my grand-father killed your grand-father because etc.etc. etc. (up to when mankind went out of the caves ) so that makes a perfect reason why i am going to kill you whenever i have the opportunity ." this behaviour is TOTALLY STUPID AND POINTLESS .! don't you think it is really high time to stop this madness ? to try to understand each others ?? to try to know each others ?? and FINALLY to respect each others ? there is a story on topic " did you know that few of the closest hitler's collaborators were jews ? why ? because he knew them personaly and that was making the whole difference !!" stalin said something like that " one man dies =it is a grief ; ten men dies = it is a tragedy ; one million men dies = it is only a statistic !" i am not saying one or an other one is responsible (more like = EVERYONE is responsible or no one !) simply this = you are the toy of someone who want you to become UNABLE to know the other . or you are a tool for this yourself.! remember " to rule is ALWAYS to divide !!" i am not for warsaw pact or Nato , i am for smoething excluding ALL or including ALL !! with a simple rule = if one try to do mischief and do not take care of what others have to say , it is the DUTY of those to EXCLUDE this one !! (promoting peace or defend it ) exactly what i meant about parroting the master . (remember USA ,UK , Iraq and OTHER members of Nato ? ) so what did you mention about a concept Kremlin has never heard of ?? it seems White-House is as unable to hear as well , unfortunatly : they rule Nato. (which is THE reason of talks within Nato or to be more precise : the promise of Mr Bush towards Ukrain and Georgia " you send troops in Iraq , i guarantee you entry into Nato " ) i can give an other example : in west germany (in past , i don't know if they still do it .) when police was arresting scums , skinhead or the like professing hate against jews , justice sentenced those to spend six months working in Israel . not a single one who spent time there , came back with the same ideas . why ? because after 6 months living in the permament contact of the hated ones , they understood this : they breath , they eat , they love , they curse sometimes , they have dreams and fears . like everybody on earth and exactly like them !!! so what side would you prefer ? the one who tries to know each others ?? or the ones whom have to "serve" the political interest of only one country ?? you see as simple as this : freedom of finding out what is best or propaganda .!!
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flyer19999 11 April, 2008, 16:42 NATO was created to counter the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union which are no more. What is NATO's purpose today? Please don't insult my intelligence and say Iran and possible missile attacks. Russia should keep a close eye on NATO.
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fred 11 April, 2008, 17:32 oleg . have you been to afghanistan ? i think not , situation of women there as not really improved .! in kabul , yes sligthly . as for the rest of the country = NO ! same propaganda than Iraq , USA was supposed to bring them freedom . tha's the reason why most cannot go out anymore of theirs houses , and if they do , how many % they won't come back ?? remember : terrorism in Iraq CAME WITH US TROOPS , not the opposite .!!
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Marzipan6 12 April, 2008, 00:11 Fred, You write very passionately about your views, and do you know what? I absolutely agree with what you write. You will not find a single post from me where I advocate some kind of revenge for the past on anyone for anything. I do decry the fact that Russia has not brought a single Russian perpetrator to answer before a court of law for the vast crimes against humanity that were committed by Russians under the Soviet flag. But this is not a question of revenge, and I don’t even call for punishment. A South African-style Truth and Reconciliation Commission will suffice, because that will bring closure to the past and clear the way for a productive and positive future. It is the future that is my focus, not the past. The past is of concern only where, and to the extent that, it handicaps the future. In this I believe that my attitude is indistinguishable from that of the Baltic countries, and of 95% of their people. The fact of the matter is, that the Baltic countries’ future relations with Russia are under a very considerable cloud because of Russia’s swaggering, aggressive, untruthful and offensive behaviour of the present in regard to them. Given Russia’s on-going behaviour, the Baltics have very well-founded fears in regard to their future, and find it prudent to therefore follow policies that provide security against the actions of such a neighbour. That neighbour’s behaviour is based on its frankly delusional concepts of the past. And this is where the past comes into the formula. Closure has to be brought to it and fantasy has to be replaced by reality in order for the present and for the future to be secure. The Baltics do not, and never will, buy into Russia’s destructive fantasies. But when they live on the basis of reality, Russia goes into a kind of tantrum. For example, no Estonian is insane enough to imagine that the Red Army brought them liberty. All that the Red Army did was to replace a terrible and murderous Nazi oppression with a terrible and murderous Soviet oppression. Yet when, in accordance with this grasp of reality, Estonians remove an offensive symbol of Soviet triumphalism from downtown Tallinn (and don’t even destroy it, but respectfully relocate it to a military cemetery just a couple of kilometres away), Russia goes into an absolute fit of anti-Estonian hatred. You do remember last March, April and May, don’t you? And by the way, Fred, your perceptions of things Estonian seem to be educated by a mixture of Russian propaganda and your own Jewish sensitivities. While I have only contempt for the former, I deeply and genuinely respect the latter, as I know what it’s like to be part of a persecuted people. You equate Estonians’ membership of the Waffen SS with being a crime all by itself. As I said, I understand why you feel that way. But I also suspect that you have no understanding of what drove Estonians in the circumstances of the time to join the only military organisation that was available to them within which to fight the returning Soviets in an organised way. I can write of this in more detail if you wish (and if RT will allow it), but not in the current post, which is already long enough. And finally, I totally agree with what you write about the benefit of visiting a land about which one has misgivings. Which is why I strongly recommend that you visit Estonia, and stay for perhaps a week or two. You will find that the pre-conceptions that colour so much of what you currently write will simply fall away, because the Baltic reality is not what you imagine it to be.
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oleg 12 April, 2008, 05:23 Fred,Yes I think I have.6 month deployment with the U.S. Air Force. You must be viewing liberal T.V.? Fred,terrorism in Iraq,came with Osama bin Laden's terrorist group, not U.S. forces. You know.you think what you want and I will think what I know!! LoL.
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fred 12 April, 2008, 09:22 marzipan . i agree with what you agree !! ;-) we could vene become friends , if being in same place . anyway , thanks a lot for your appreciation . as for russians and soviets : it is going to be difficult and a long process . don't forget S.U. collapsed not too long ago . it takes a long time to face your onw history without becoming mad or depressed . i see the situation as this = russians have some cadavers in theirs lockers . something they don't know yet if it is a glory or a shame (it is more or less the same for ANY nations on earth ) if some shouting ones from outside are claiming that it is ONLY shamefull , in a perfectly easy to understand reaction , russians will go hiding in their shell . then ANY efforts from in or out to "reconcilliate" peoples would be doomed to faillure . look at an other exemple : USA = if you say anything about something really bad they did , most americans would answer you with "it is because you are anti-american !" without even trying to try to understand your point of view . the same for UK , they "invented" concentration camps (Nazis just made the concept more "efficient")during th Boers War (south Africa) The same for France , as soon as freed from the nazis , we did about the same than the nazis in North-Africa . (Algeria) so instead of trying to build-up something , i see as useless and even dangerous , as Nato . we should try to settle down all the past accounts , we (europeans) have in common ! so when i see polish or checsk accepting missile system to prevent from Iran attacks = i cannot help it but to think " if they don't take for plainly stupid , what a good joke !!" in that respect , Nato is something dangerous because it spread ONLY fears , betrayal and suspicions where we , as europeans , should try to understand and handle our common history . if we fail to do this , then we are doomed to , one day , fight each others again .!! in that respect Nato is as well a tool and a reason for such happening !! why not let our respective peoples to know each others by FREELY travelling ? peace and richness (against Fears and military spending with Nato) will come at this price , knowing AND respecting each others .!!!
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SrpskiCrnogorac 12 April, 2008, 12:56 "SrpskiCrnogorac, your comment that.are ridiculous and rather offensive" Then you should not demand from Russia what you are not able to provide yourself. But I repeat myself by saying, that I see Russia standing on a higher moral ground than the Baltic States, and therefore she shold show her greatness by apologising for Soviet crimes, because she is the legal successor of the Soviet Union, while the lack of moral of Baltic people should be compensated by secession of Russian population in their countries. Since the Baltic States agree with Nato´s policy of might is right a la Kosovo, they should also bear the consequences of it.
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johann 12 April, 2008, 17:23 marzipan :"The Baltics do not, and never will, buy into Russia’s destructive fantasies" this is the way you are really thinking even in the name of those baltic states nationals whom have a different approach.but you have the liberty to do so on the russian RT forum without realising the things have changed somehow.take it easy,the events are following their way without asking you or your neighbor.
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Marzipan6 13 April, 2008, 07:06 Johann Communism, and all its attendant fictions and fantasies, has had exceptionally little support in the Baltics over the past hundred years. Yes, there have been a few home-grown Communists there, but “few” is definitely the operative word – so few, that they have not achieved legitimate government, and ruled during the Soviet era only because of the support of power of the Red Army and the terror of the KGB. During the Soviet occupation it was necessary to have had Communist Party membership in order to hold any even half-way decent job, and so a lot of people joined. Estonians had a name for that phenomenon – they called them “kõhukommunistid” – i.e., “stomach Communists.” However, I will not dispute the fact that as you pointed out, a Russian forum indeed publishes my posts. I am actually fairly impressed with them because of this, as it gives hope that maybe someday genuine freedom of speech may grow and flourish in the mainstream Russian language media, too. This is vital if the Russian people are going to eventually understand the realities of their history, accurately judge the competence of their government, its ministers and their policies, and take responsibility for the progress of their own country. Thank-you, RT.
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Marzipan6 13 April, 2008, 07:37 Fred, Yes, it does take a long time and much effort for any country to struggle out of the hole into which Communism has put them. I am well aware of the scars and blemishes that remain on Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania as a result of their Soviet experience, economically, politically, environmentally and spiritually. I believe it will take several generations for that kind of damange to be eventually healed. And the process is much harder in Russia itself, first because they were ruled by Communism much longer, and secondly, because Communism was their own baby, as it were, and was not imposed on them by a foreign invader. Throughout the Soviet occupation, the Baltics found it easier to resist Communist values because this was something foreign that was forced on them. Russians, on the other hand, embraced Communism with pride as their own thing, and thus had fewer moral defences against it. In another Estonian-language forum, an elderly Estonian man expressed himself on the matter something like this (he said this in the context of obvious ethical problems evident in the country amongst his own people): “I was determined to resist the occupation, but as time went on I found I, too, had to co-operate with them. Lying, pretending to work, being suspicions of even my friends became second nature. It will take at least a generation for time to be able to clear away that slop.” He then expressed joy at the example of many of the young people he saw around him, who have had no direct experience of Soviet times, but have lived all their young lives in a free country. In the meantime, the Baltics have to live with the human resources that they have, and to manage the behaviour of their eastern neighbour such as it is. And that poses quite a challenge. Most Baltic people would very much like to have friendly relations with Russians, but so far this has proved possible only on a personal level, not on a national level, and even then, only partially. I don’t live in Estonia, but I visit,there, including last year. At a “bed and breakfast” accommodation place that I stayed at in Tartu, in the middle of the country, the owners told me about a group of three railway workers from the Estonian border city of Narva, who had just departed. These workers were ethnic Russians, spoke no Estonian, and had their attitudes and viewpoints shaped exclusively by Russian media. When they arrived at the place, the first thing they demanded – demanded, mind you – was that the owners take down the Estonian flag in front of the building, because “it offended them.” When the owners refused, these people took their revenge. Early every morning when they woke up, they tuned the dining room radio onto a station in Russia that played the Russian national anthem, and had that blare out at full volume. They then kept the radio playing the Russian station at full volume whenever they were in, and when others turned it down to a more reasonable volume, they immediately turned it up again. They also went out of their way to behave in pubic areas of the establishment in as rude a way as possible to all concerned. The proprietress of the establishment said that she had to obtain blood pressure medication to be able to cope. I know that there are objectionable fools amongst every nationality on earth. But Russian arrogance in Estonia unfortunately often has a particularly offensive edge to it, and this is not entirely unrelated to the kind of distorted image that Russian media portrays of the country.
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SrpskiCrnogorac 13 April, 2008, 15:12 "When they arrived at the place, the first thing they demanded." Congratulations, the bumerang is coming back, for being a member of the north atlantic terror organisation and for your illegal recognition of Kosovo independence. You should know where all this will end. Russia is adopting Nato´s policy. Good luck.
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fred 13 April, 2008, 16:56 marzipan ... yes , it is going to long and difficult ... no doubts about ...! but not only about communism (which by the way WAS NOT a russian baby , but the mind work of a german citizen [Marx]living in London implemented into Russia by russian exilee [vladimir ilitch oulyanov lenin], helped in the matter by german Kaiser secret services to destabilize the Russian empire fighting in WW1 ... it worked only too well !) yes , it is going to be very long ... but take a wider look ... in 1921 (or 1924 , cannot remember !) a certain Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili [ Иосиф Сталин /იოსებ სტალინი ] seized power ... how many russians have simply the idea that this guy and his obssesion about conspiracy killed more than WW2 itself , even before the start of WW2 ? ( in a period some call "yesovshina" [sorry for wrong spelling] named after the GPU comissar who organized it , or Great Purges [Большая чистка ] when anybody could frame anybody for anything ending allways in , at the best , being shot immediatly in backyards or , at the worst , sent to Goulag ... ) so yes mistake are done by EVERYONE if everybody want to look ONLY at how bad things did happen to only them and with this justify (wether it's right or wrong ) a pro or against mood : it will lead to more blooshed and violences at the worst ... or at the best it would produce some nationalistics reactions , which will make the process only slower ...!! from an outside point of view , yes , soviets were bad with estonians , probably not better or worse than nazis ... but if you compare what the Russians population ( i am not talking about communists nomenklatura) had to suffer under the brutal rules of communism , they are to be taken as victims as estonians , latvians , lithunians , chechens , and basically all peoples who were at some point under staline/communist fist power ! for that reason , how many personns know that from 1917 till 1919 a concentration camp was created on solovski islands , later to be extended to many more Gulags ... this is where i suppose , we disagree ...! because , a said population into a said country can very well be culprit and victim at the same time !!! it take a lot of time to face history and a lot of patience/nerve to understand , WE are ALL culprits and victims at the same time ... it is past ... now it is time to look at future ... together !!
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Vijay Singh 13 April, 2008, 17:24 Early every morning when they woke up, they tuned the dining room radio onto a station in Russia that played the Russian national anthem - Marzipan, there never was a [Russian National Anthem] during Soviet times, if you recall correctly! Communism, and all its attendant fictions and fantasies, has had exceptionally little support in the Baltics over the past hundred years. Yes, there have been a few home-grown Communists there, but “few” is definitely the operative word - Yes, certainly 'few' is the operative word! Were there any [home-grown 'Fascists' in Estonia/Lithuania] during the same times or even now? Far less or far more.for that is the more operative word! Marzipan, you are one of those people that like to dwell in the past, so that you may never have to face the present.because you always think that the future never changes! Well, that is rarely so.
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fred 14 April, 2008, 09:39 oleg . definitely i cannot agrre more with you . i think and say what i want , you can profess whatever you want . terrorists groups came into Irak using exactly the same route then US forces , thru Kurdistan . Even your C.I.A. has agreed on the point that O.B. Laden had NO connections with Saddam Hussein . so as a result of US invasion = Al Quaeda came to Irak , following the mess US troops created there , still not resolved . as for me watching "Liberal TV" ??? i thought you were in afghanistan and irak to bring freedom and democracy ??? for you freedom is to watch what you are allowed to watch ??? very strange way of freedom and democracy .!!! you are allmost a justification of WHY NATO is so useless and dangerous = you just cannot stand someone not thinking or doing as you do . please stop watching "pentagon chanel" and "Fox news" .
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Regula_John 14 April, 2008, 13:13 NATO has made western Europe safer due to the fact that countries like Britain Spain France Germany and Italy no longer fight bitter wars amongst themselves as they had done for centuries before, The problem with NATO is that it is totally dominated by the USA they are at the top of the command structure and NATO is used to implement a worldwide USA agenda I think this is wrong and the main reason NATO is viewed by many nations as a hostile force. In my opinion this command structure should change in Europe countries like Germany France Italy Britain ect, should set the agenda based on European needs and the USA should play a supporting role. I think the relationship with countries like Russia would improve. Take for instance the USA missile system which they want to place in Poland we Europeans know this will not make us safer and I believe if the decision was left to us we would not have it. France withdrew from the command structure in 1966 because of American domination it’s a shame others did not follow their lead it’s a real shame that the new French president is going to take them back into the command structure in December this is a bad move both for France and the rest of Europe as it will end any hope of Western Europe becoming masters of their own destiny The USA should concentrate on their own internal defence and stop trying to create some sort of modern day “Roman Empire” leading Europe around by the nose.
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Marzipan6 15 April, 2008, 10:30 SrpskiCrnogorac, it was not a boomerang in 1918-20, only a dagger coming from Russia, aimed at the heart of a newly-emergent Estonia. It took 2 years of Estonia desperately fighting for its life and with enormous casualties, against both Russian and German forces, before it defeated them and won Russian recognition for its sovereignty “for all time” in the 1920 Tartu Peace treaty. It was not a boomerang in December of 1924, only a coup attempt against the infant nation, organised by Red Army personnel who secretly crossed the border from Russia; that aggression was put down, but at a cost of innocent Estonian lives. It was no boomerang in 1940-41, when Soviet Russia staged its completely unprovoked invasion and overthrow of the Estonian government, at gunpoint and entirely illegally forced its incorporation into the Soviet Union and commenced murdering and transporting into Siberian slavery of tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children. It was no boomerang in 1945 when Russians returned and continued where they left off murdering and transporting further tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of innocent Estonians, ravaging and destroying their country, and overflooding it with hundreds of thousands of foreigners for the purpose of trying to render Estonians a minority in their own land, and so ensuring that it could never recover as a sovereign nation again. It was no boomerang when the approximately 250,000 Russians chose to remain after 1991 because Estonia afforded them a higher standard of living, and a safer, more secure and worthwhile life than Russia itself could, and readily offered them citizenship by naturalization. And it is no boomerang when a portion of those people, in celebration of their good fortune, I guess, behave like odious and offensive colonial-era orang-utans. No boomerang at all. Just a microcosm of the same old Russian behaviour, unprovoked, unjustified and unlovely, that Estonia has experienced for a century or more, and probably will for a while yet. These are the challenges Estonia must deal with, because that is the behaviour with which its giant eastern neighbour constantly blesses it. Still, the Baltic countries are fairly used to it. They've been dealing with it years. Estonia's official policy in regard to Russia is one of benign neglect. It simply more or less ignores the place and gets on with life until Russian behaviour becomes more reasonable. Because by definition,you can't reason with either a person, or with a country, that is unreasonable.
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Marzipan6 15 April, 2008, 11:45 Vijay, You asked whether there were any home-grown fascists in Estonia? There were no Nazis that I know of. There was a right-wing movement of War of Independence veterans who tried to influence Estonian policies in the 1930s, but they were far, far removed from anything even remotely akin to Nazis, and never attained government. And there were no Nazis in Estonia under the German occupation that I know of, either. Why would anyone want to take on the odious, inhumane and hostile philosophies of their occupying enemy? When that German enemy was itself on the way to losing the war, many Estonians did join its military forces, some because of illegal conscription and some voluntarily, because that was the only means open to them to fight against the returning Russians in an organised way,and try to prevent the resumption of the 1940-41 Russian atrocities against them. The hope was that they could delay the Russian re-occupation of their country until the war itself ended, at which time they hoped they would be safe and that Estonian sovereignty could be restored. stonia did re-declare its sovereignty in the brief period of transition after the departure of the Germans and before the return of the Soviet Russians. But even though their actions had delayed the Red Army’s return by some months, once the Russians were in there was no hope of stopping them from taking subjugating the country again. And so for the second time in 5 years, Russian troops pulled down the blue-black-white flag of free Estonia that was flying over the capital, and replaced it with the hammer and sickle. The reign of sheer terror which Moscow re-commenced, and its totalitarian oppression of nearly another 50 years, amply justified Estonians’ resolve to try to stop their return by any means possible. But as I’ve said in many of my posts, Vijay, the past is not important of itself. It is important only inasmuch as it handicaps the present and endangers the future. Russia’s point-blank refusal to acknowledge its Soviet-era crimes in the Baltics, and its ongoing lying and hostile behaviour towards those three small and peaceful neighbours, place a very real cloud over the future. And that is why I write about the subject.
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