Europe's passport-free travel zone is now nine countries bigger. Is it safe?, page 2

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Europe's passport-free travel zone is now nine countries bigger. Is it safe?

Gregory 30 December, 2007, 10:58	This thread is about the farce that is incorporating more countries. There is no political or psychological mileage left in WW2. The Germans will no doubt continue to be the whipping posts of people like you. The Russians are made of psychologically more robust matter. Hopefully they will patent this and sell it in bottles to Berlin one day. Anyway back to more important and modern matters. There is an alternative to this drifting that is called EU policy. It can be summed up in one magical word. A “referendum” will determine if this unaccountable abuse of taxpayer’s money in expenses and paperwork actually serves a purpose. The results? A streamlining of an obese monster. An end to unrealistic dreams of expansion. A move away from this “one-size fits all” diktat. Snake oil salesmen beware. There will be a return to the traditional roots of the European Union: co-operation, transparency and respect for neighbours. Like doctors administering a placebo (a pill which has no medicinal effect) time and time again the same old gang parade in front of TV cameras in their best suits. People are starting to ask questions. I would like to ask you 7 questions. You do not have to wear a suit to answer them. These are questions which go unanswered as we enter 2008. 1 What happens when Turkey joins the EU? 2 How will the EU decrease unemployment? 3 What are the geographical boundaries of Europe (for you)? 4 Why is there low election participation for electing European MP’s? 5 How do we measure “value for money” of this organisation? 6 Why have prices been rounded up with the Euro? 7 Why do I need an additional pseudo-government somewhere else telling me what to do? If the EU ever had a “value for money” audit…some people would be for the high jump. Let’s not forget the saying “good fences make good neighbours”. permalink quote 0 Gregory
Marzipan6 31 December, 2007, 00:32	Gregory asks me to answer seven questions. Not having any role personally with the EU, I’m able to comment on them only as an interested private observer, and my comments carry no particular weight. However, to make Gregory happy: (1) What happens when Turkey joins the EU? This probably won’t happen unless Turkey first significantly reforms many areas of its national life and values. Given its largely Central Asian/Middle Eastern orientations, in my view it is unlikely to do so. Therefore Gregory’s scenario is not likely to become actual. (2) How will the EU decrease unemployment? I’m not an economist. But the traditional way is to stimulate internal consumer spending by appropriate monetary and fiscal policies. Incidentally, some newer EU members, like Estonia, have the very opposite of an unemployment problem. It has a severe labour shortage which threatens to curb its established level of growth, and has therefore further opened its labour force to foreign workers. (3) What are the geographical boundaries of Europe (for you)? In my personal view, Turkey’s sliver of European territory does not make it a European country. Geographically Europe extends to the Urals, but these are a pretty unimpressive feature as far as mountains go. Politically, Europe extends to the border of Russia. While a part of Russian territory is in Europe, its soul is not. Nor does Russia really belong in Asia. It is an entity unto itself, neither Asian nor European, though influenced by each to a degree that neither Asia nor Europe is. (4) Why is there low election participation for electing European MPs? Because people are complacent, because European politicians have not related closely to their electorates, and because neither Europe nor individual European countries are under any external threat. (5) How do we measure “value for money” of this organisation? The same way as the value of all freely floating currencies is determined, by the buying and selling of the currency in the currency markets. (6) Why have prices been rounded up with the Euro? Who knows. But greed might have a little something to do with it. (7) Why do I need an additional pseudo-government somewhere else telling me what to do? If you live in a desert island somewhere, you need no one at all telling you what to do. If you live in a local community, then just like everyone else you need to observe local rules, or the community cannot exist to deliver its benefits to you. The same in regard to a national community. And if you live in a supra-national community such as the EU, certain uniformities need to be in place for it to function as a community, and to deliver the benefits that its size and resources make possible. This may impact on aspects of your life that otherwise you may organise differently. If you and enough of your fellow citizens think this is unreasonable or is not worth the gain, you can either bring democratic pressure to have the matters changed, or ultimately, to leave the EU. permalink quote 0 Marzipan6
Gregory 31 December, 2007, 10:44	Thanks for taking the time to answer Marzipan6. I am sure you appreciate that posting do not allow for the exchange of information that real-time conversations do. And also a big thanks to this host site for encouraging conversations. (1) I am glad you admit that Europe and Turkey are not mutually compatible. (2) Eastern Europe should grow organically. They can all go work in Estonia. Polish workers in Poland are now being replaced by Romanians and Ukrainians who work for lower wages. Do you see a heinous economic slave pattern here Marzipan6? (3) Marzipan6 wrote: While a part of Russian territory is in Europe, its soul is not. Nor does Russia really belong in Asia. It is an entity unto itself, neither Asian nor European, though influenced by each to a degree that neither Asia nor Europe is. And this is why I find their worldview so damn refreshing. One of the few honest people left. (4) Why is there low election participation for electing European MPs? Because the whole concept and the organisation has been hyped up totally out of proportion. Even worse than the meagre quality boxing matches on American satellite TV. (5) The EU should learn the concept of thrift. As should the “suits” who milk the system. (6) Why have prices been rounded up with the Euro? Marzipan6 wrote: Who knows. But greed might have a little something to do with it. I agree with this. No politican stated this beforehand. This discredits the hype associated with the euro. (7) Why do I need an additional pseudo-government somewhere else telling me what to do? Marzipan6 wrote: If you and enough of your fellow citizens think this is unreasonable or is not worth the gain, you can either bring democratic pressure to have the matters changed, or ultimately, to leave the EU. People were bullied into this. The EU has just turned into the lowest form of peer pressure. It really is just a funny “school” of sorts. Many people feel there is nothing democratic about it. Even the often promised referendum has been avoided. Except in Switzerland. Referendums are a way of life for them. Every other western country fudges the issue or waves a magic wand in the mainstream media to distract the sheep oh sorry I mean the public. No-one is suggesting the complete elimination of the EU, but I cannot see how blind optimism and expansion plans worthy of the Ottoman Empire and a Tony Blair-esque "make it up as you go along" mentality will improve the future. permalink quote 0 Gregory
Marzipan6 1 January, 2008, 06:53	Gregory asks, “Do you see a heinous economic slave pattern at work here?” Nope. Gregory also finds Russian worldviews “damn refreshing”. Many of Russia’s neighbours find them “damn worrying”, because they used to find them “damn murderous”, and Russia has never brought appropriate closure to its Soviet-era adventures at their expense. Gregory also thinks that European countries were “bullied” into joining the EU. He should read about the Soviet-era history of the countries of the Soviet bloc some time. THAT’S “bullying”. permalink quote 0 Marzipan6
Gregory 4 January, 2008, 21:15	Polish people working on low wages and living in substandard accomodation in the UK: read andy Britsh newspaper on-line this year for the stories eg The Daily Mail, The Times, The Independent, The Guardian. The EU making decisions and making up new jobs for the boys: read David Milliband's recent speech on expanding the EU to include African countries. David Miliband comes from a family with strong bolshevik convictions. The advent of Schengen is providing a further wave of malleable slaves for the West. Former Soviet Countries can start blaming communism and stop crying. I don't see how Russia sorting out the mess in Chechnya has anything to do with Marzipan6 and his anti-slavic diatribes on this website. In fact I challenge Marzipan6 to state if he hates Russians or if he hates communism? And if he thinks 63 years of atonement or possibly 126 years of atonement will finally clean Germany's record and if he expects the same for Russia? And finally what country are you based in and what country are you from? Because Marzipan6.unless it's Luxembourg I am pretty sure we can pick holes in your ideologoy/country/nation/tribe/religion etc. EU = a fake invention running out of steam and built on the pomposity of the post-ww2 generation. The same generation who emasculated european men and promote degenerate "lifestyles" and PC censorship. permalink quote 0 Gregory
Marzipan6 5 January, 2008, 12:25	Gregory, I don’t hate Russians and I don’t hate Slavs. Over the years I have had good Russian friends, and have some Russian work colleagues now. On a personal basis I have never had anything other than good relations with Russians, including with many Russians whom I have met and with whom I have interacted in the former Soviet region. I enjoy Russian music and have a fairly good collection of it. And I enjoy Russian ballet, theatre and literature, although unfortunately, I can read it only in translation, as I do not speak Russian. Do I hate Communism? I certainly abhor what Communism has done to people, Russians and their neighbours alike, in areas where it has ruled. I have seen the poverty that it caused, and understand the terrible human suffering that it imposed. My country of residence is a complete irrelevance. My posts either stand or fall strictly on their own contents, and not on anything else. And don't worry -- I can pick far more holes in my country's policies and record than you ever could. But none of that is relevant to Russia's hoped-for better future. permalink quote 0 Marzipan6
Marzipan6 5 January, 2008, 12:29	Gregory, read about the GULAG, and read about Nazi concentration camps. That's slavery. What you see in some parts of the European labour market is economic opportunism. Ugly for sure, but a long, long, long, long way from slavery. permalink quote 0 Marzipan6
Gregory 6 January, 2008, 16:13	Thanks for the polite responses Marzipan6. I guess we will have to agree to differ on the whole Schengen thing. Have a good week. permalink quote 0 Gregory

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