Georgia unrest: democracy under fire?


fred 7 November, 2007, 14:44	just watching the news about tbilissi .! an other fine day for democracy in the world .! funny how some can see different thing in the system called democracy . wonder if Mr Bush is going to say anything on the topicc ? caspian oil is taking a high price on democratic process . :-)) [copied from other thread - RT] permalink quote 0 fred
Dusan 7 November, 2007, 14:53	Yeah, well this is what is going to look like in all "democratic" countries. I hope my country will soon follow Georgia in search of REAL democracy. This is a criminal behavior and they will not stop to listen to reason. It is like they are brain washed SakashVily and Serbian leaders. permalink quote 0 Dusan
Sevodnya_Net 7 November, 2007, 15:03	(To be fair to Bush he spoke out against Musharraf in Pakistan.) However, on the subject of Georgia unfortunately heavy-handed tactics by security forces are not unknown both in so-called democratic and non-democratic states. Up until recently it was illegal to make a political demonstration of any sort outside the British parliament, for example, for "security" reasons. I'm sure we all hope that these actions don't make the situation worse. I know I'm going to face the usual flak for saying so, but only do these sorts of actions give fledgling democracies a bad name, but they also give ammunition to the enemies of progressive governments like Mr Saakasvili's. So shame on the Georgian police - for the method if not for the aim. I'm sure had thousands of protesters attempted to block a main thoroughfare in Moscow and set up a camp the police would have been only too happy to oblige :-) permalink quote 0 Sevodnya_Net
DD 7 November, 2007, 15:25	Where are the Europeans and Americans now with their critics about Democracy and Democratic protests? Why is it correct that Georgia can use brutal force to break up the protest of the people? When the protests of an handfull of people were broken up in Russia & in Belarus the papers and all news broadcasts were full of critisism about the Russia & Belarussian authorities! What a big hypocrisy in the West, my good and democratic home continent! permalink quote 0 DD
Natty 7 November, 2007, 15:39	Is Russia to blame again? All this is coordinated from Moscow? Interesting! permalink quote 0 Natty
Al 7 November, 2007, 16:25	Oh well, provided Washington, Brussels, London and George Soros' Open Society proclaims Georgia's Democratic credentials and Saakashvili's benevolence, their "democracy" is obviously healthy and the protestors must be a ragtag group of Russian 5th columnists who hate "freedom". Then again.perhaps the Western bankrolled Saakashvili mob were never anything more than another banana republic dictatorship working for their foreign masters and creditors. permalink quote 0 Al
Sevodnya_Net 7 November, 2007, 16:59	"Where are the Europeans and Americans now with their critics about Democracy and Democratic protests? Why is it correct that Georgia can use brutal force to break up the protest of the people? " Why not wait and see what the reaction is first before commenting on what you think/hope it's going to be :-) What is the difference between such actions in Georgia, Russia, Belarus, Britain? Absolutely none (IMHO). permalink quote 0 Sevodnya_Net
fred 7 November, 2007, 17:09	sevodnya . yes bush said something about musharaf . but it's only diplomatic whisper ! bush just need too badly pakistan to be really concern about the authoritarian aspect the gov. is taking there .! as well as to see anything "progressive" in sakashvilli is a bit over the top . he is a minor type of dictator , like DD mention , it is the good old double standarts from the west ! what has been done in Georgia since sakasvilli came to power to make the country better ? not a lot (we could endlessly argue if i would write Nothing!) ! Georgians starts to understand he is not fit for the job . demonstration , riots and the like are the few things that can give some "political maturity" to a nation , just hope it's not going to be too tough for the population .!! permalink quote 0 fred
DD 7 November, 2007, 17:35	There is no difference, in all countries, and that is true. But it is the way of bringing the news to the people and how to brainwash the people's of the West of who's right and wrong! How come uptill now I never heard a word of critisism on the brutal beatings of the Georgian protesters?? Why don't the hypocritical news agencies of the West report on this?I remember the beatings in Russia and Belarus were covered very intesively from the 1st day start! Maybe some intelligent people from this comment area can give me the answer? permalink quote 0 DD
Sam 7 November, 2007, 18:52	Yes Bush did say something about pakistan.That the action there was unforgivable but cutting aid to pakistan will affect the war on terror.Another slap on the wrist as usual:) As for Georgia.Well its shameful,if you want to be westernized you have to behave western.Attacking a peaceful demostration or closing down opposition TV is not done in the west.But then again another slap on the wrist coming. BBC,ITV,SKY gave only a little report on what is going on in Georgia.Are they biased or is Georgia or little intrest? Comparing to Russia or anywhere is useless.Georgia is judged by her own action.The Georgian people do not deserve this.Do not think anyone with an ounce of georgian blood will let the government get away with this.Mark my words this is only the start. permalink quote 0 Sam
oleg 7 November, 2007, 19:20	I think the U.S. should use brutal force on protesters.It makes people behave.I fully support the use of force. permalink quote 0 oleg
Al 7 November, 2007, 19:52	I realise I'm digressing and apologise in advance but comparing Pakistan and Georgia is perhaps not the best idea because conditions and cultures between the two are vastly different. Georgia is a small, passive country with a relatively educated and non-radical population. Pakistan contains a mixture of peoples many of whom can be extremely violent and dangerous, aren't literate and who have lived in lawless areas for centuries. One cannot simply tell people like this to "stop being naughty" and to "vote for a nice candidate" because democracy and voting has no meaning for them. The only way to control such a mob, especially when they are stirred up, is through force and the law of the jungle. The actions of the US and NATO in Afghanistan and Pakistan's cooperation with US/NATO has stirred up the tribal regions with many now running riot and furious with Musharraf for appearing to side with the "Crusaders" against their cousins from across the border. Bush's call for Pakistani "elections" and "democracy" is idiotic. The country is in a state of near civil war and pushing Western puppets like Bhutto or Sharif is not going to restore order. Musharraf is in a tight spot and has little alternative but to declare martial law and clamp down on anybody undermining the security of the state, be it well-meaning lawyers or opportunistic foreign controlled politicians. The situation in Georgia is completely different in that there is widespread public disillusionment with their leadership. There are not conditions present which may result in a civil war though. If Saakashvili actually believed in and applied all those wonderful things he claimed to support, he wouldn't be blacking out the media or setting his attack dogs on the protestors, nor accuse them of being "Russian agents". (An old Saakashvili trick. Russia this, Russia that blah blah). Saakashvili made a career out of claiming the moral highground, yet when the chickens came home to roost, he was found wanting and turned out to be just another Bananastan windbag. permalink quote 0 Al
Democratic 7 November, 2007, 20:13	The signs are ominously similar- Democracy stifled, tanks and guns used to stifle unarmed protests, TV stations muzzled, mass arrests, Dictators bringing all all stops to stay in power. More ominously - Both US clients, both depend largely on US (read Bush)financial inputs, both 'hopefully' SOLID US Supporters in the war against terrorism - sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq! I'm talking about Pakistan and Georgia! Be forewarned - other surefire US 'Supported' Democracies! permalink quote 0 Democratic
Gill 7 November, 2007, 20:50	I too am appalled about the lack of coverage in the UK about Tblisi. I have written to the Prime Minister and to our two main TV channels to ask why there is no coverage. Had I not seen a newsflash on yahoo and the excellent coverage on RT TV, I would not have known about it. And the world should know about it. It was terrible to watch. Terrible. permalink quote 0 Gill
DaniYah 7 November, 2007, 21:12	Thanks, Democratic! Your warning to US- supported democracies is more than accurate. I cannot help but extend the warning to those who claim to be US allies in the "war on terror." Spain, Britain, and especially Iraq were hit with brutal "suicide" and other terror attacks while having US backed officials in power. Being a US ally in terror = attracting terror?! Also, thanks to Gil for writing to the officials and to the press. More people should do this. Some experts said recently that emails are the most effective way for the public to get their message across. permalink quote 0 DaniYah
Sharinau 7 November, 2007, 21:23	One the main streets in the Georgian capital is actually called George W. Bush Avenue! featuring a massive portrait of the great American president. surprise in is not a bronze statue.need we say more about both great leaders? permalink quote 0 Sharinau
DaniYah 7 November, 2007, 21:29	"Pakistan.peoples.can be extremely violent and dangerous, aren't literate and who have lived in lawless areas for centuries. .people like this. democracy and voting has no meaning for them." Al, did you see the Reuters photos of the Pakistani lawyers and academics now leading the PEACEFUL protests against Musharraf? Polarizing the modern world along racial or cultural lines is not just highly inaccurate but a callous offense. If you judge by culture, Europeans have been among the least civilized and uneducated peoples of the world (led by the Vatican during the Crusades and the Dark Ages++.) Please apologize. permalink quote 0 DaniYah
Al 7 November, 2007, 21:46	Gordon Brown and the BBC (which is more or less a New Labour mouthpiece) are hardly going to rush towards criticising their own puppet. The Establishment invested a lot of propaganda effort and money into trumpeting the new democratic dawn in the newly "liberated" ex-Soviet blocks and turning on their own people would be rather embarrassing. They're probably hoping that he can subdue the unhappy masses before commencing with business as usual (the typical Russian invasion stories) which the BBC and the Economist so love to trumpet. It would be interesting to see what Rupert Murdoch will make of this and whether he will choose to throw his weight behind Saakashvili or throw him to the wolves in favour of somebody else, seeing as News Corp now has a stake in Imedi. permalink quote 0 Al
Sevodnya_Net 7 November, 2007, 23:02	To DaniYah: Ref your last post about Pakistan and Europe. You know when you read something and say to yourself "I wish I'd written that or been able to express it so well". I'd just like to say I agree 100% (whatever else we disagree on!) The answer to RT's question must now be "yes" - democracy is under fire - from one quarter or another, who knows . And I'm also fed up with the BBC's coverage of Georgia, although it would be unrealistic to expect it to devote the same time as RT does. There is plenty on the website tho. permalink quote 0 Sevodnya_Net
Daniel 7 November, 2007, 23:53	I don't think it's fair and reasonable to call the BBC a govt mouthpiece. The BBC is one of the finest public broadcasters, and it's completly independent from any govt intervention. And just because govenments like georgia and Ukraine appear pro-western doesn't mean there's a propaganda campaign and Russia isn't that clean too, what about their involement in Abkazia? or supporting dictatorships such as Uzbekistan? permalink quote 0 Daniel

fred 7 November, 2007, 14:44

just watching the news about tbilissi .! an other fine day for democracy in the world .! funny how some can see different thing in the system called democracy . wonder if Mr Bush is going to say anything on the topicc ? caspian oil is taking a high price on democratic process . :-)) [copied from other thread - RT]

permalink quote fred

Dusan 7 November, 2007, 14:53

Yeah, well this is what is going to look like in all "democratic" countries. I hope my country will soon follow Georgia in search of REAL democracy. This is a criminal behavior and they will not stop to listen to reason. It is like they are brain washed SakashVily and Serbian leaders.

permalink quote Dusan

Sevodnya_Net 7 November, 2007, 15:03

(To be fair to Bush he spoke out against Musharraf in Pakistan.) However, on the subject of Georgia unfortunately heavy-handed tactics by security forces are not unknown both in so-called democratic and non-democratic states. Up until recently it was illegal to make a political demonstration of any sort outside the British parliament, for example, for "security" reasons. I'm sure we all hope that these actions don't make the situation worse. I know I'm going to face the usual flak for saying so, but only do these sorts of actions give fledgling democracies a bad name, but they also give ammunition to the enemies of progressive governments like Mr Saakasvili's. So shame on the Georgian police - for the method if not for the aim. I'm sure had thousands of protesters attempted to block a main thoroughfare in Moscow and set up a camp the police would have been only too happy to oblige :-)

permalink quote Sevodnya_Net

DD 7 November, 2007, 15:25

Where are the Europeans and Americans now with their critics about Democracy and Democratic protests? Why is it correct that Georgia can use brutal force to break up the protest of the people? When the protests of an handfull of people were broken up in Russia & in Belarus the papers and all news broadcasts were full of critisism about the Russia & Belarussian authorities! What a big hypocrisy in the West, my good and democratic home continent!

permalink quote DD

Natty 7 November, 2007, 15:39

Is Russia to blame again? All this is coordinated from Moscow? Interesting!

permalink quote Natty

Al 7 November, 2007, 16:25

Oh well, provided Washington, Brussels, London and George Soros' Open Society proclaims Georgia's Democratic credentials and Saakashvili's benevolence, their "democracy" is obviously healthy and the protestors must be a ragtag group of Russian 5th columnists who hate "freedom". Then again.perhaps the Western bankrolled Saakashvili mob were never anything more than another banana republic dictatorship working for their foreign masters and creditors.

permalink quote Al

Sevodnya_Net 7 November, 2007, 16:59

"Where are the Europeans and Americans now with their critics about Democracy and Democratic protests? Why is it correct that Georgia can use brutal force to break up the protest of the people? " Why not wait and see what the reaction is first before commenting on what you think/hope it's going to be :-) What is the difference between such actions in Georgia, Russia, Belarus, Britain? Absolutely none (IMHO).

permalink quote Sevodnya_Net

fred 7 November, 2007, 17:09

sevodnya . yes bush said something about musharaf . but it's only diplomatic whisper ! bush just need too badly pakistan to be really concern about the authoritarian aspect the gov. is taking there .! as well as to see anything "progressive" in sakashvilli is a bit over the top . he is a minor type of dictator , like DD mention , it is the good old double standarts from the west ! what has been done in Georgia since sakasvilli came to power to make the country better ? not a lot (we could endlessly argue if i would write Nothing!) ! Georgians starts to understand he is not fit for the job . demonstration , riots and the like are the few things that can give some "political maturity" to a nation , just hope it's not going to be too tough for the population .!!

permalink quote fred

DD 7 November, 2007, 17:35

There is no difference, in all countries, and that is true. But it is the way of bringing the news to the people and how to brainwash the people's of the West of who's right and wrong! How come uptill now I never heard a word of critisism on the brutal beatings of the Georgian protesters?? Why don't the hypocritical news agencies of the West report on this?I remember the beatings in Russia and Belarus were covered very intesively from the 1st day start! Maybe some intelligent people from this comment area can give me the answer?

permalink quote DD

Sam 7 November, 2007, 18:52

Yes Bush did say something about pakistan.That the action there was unforgivable but cutting aid to pakistan will affect the war on terror.Another slap on the wrist as usual:) As for Georgia.Well its shameful,if you want to be westernized you have to behave western.Attacking a peaceful demostration or closing down opposition TV is not done in the west.But then again another slap on the wrist coming. BBC,ITV,SKY gave only a little report on what is going on in Georgia.Are they biased or is Georgia or little intrest? Comparing to Russia or anywhere is useless.Georgia is judged by her own action.The Georgian people do not deserve this.Do not think anyone with an ounce of georgian blood will let the government get away with this.Mark my words this is only the start.

permalink quote Sam

oleg 7 November, 2007, 19:20

I think the U.S. should use brutal force on protesters.It makes people behave.I fully support the use of force.

permalink quote oleg

Al 7 November, 2007, 19:52

I realise I'm digressing and apologise in advance but comparing Pakistan and Georgia is perhaps not the best idea because conditions and cultures between the two are vastly different. Georgia is a small, passive country with a relatively educated and non-radical population. Pakistan contains a mixture of peoples many of whom can be extremely violent and dangerous, aren't literate and who have lived in lawless areas for centuries. One cannot simply tell people like this to "stop being naughty" and to "vote for a nice candidate" because democracy and voting has no meaning for them. The only way to control such a mob, especially when they are stirred up, is through force and the law of the jungle. The actions of the US and NATO in Afghanistan and Pakistan's cooperation with US/NATO has stirred up the tribal regions with many now running riot and furious with Musharraf for appearing to side with the "Crusaders" against their cousins from across the border. Bush's call for Pakistani "elections" and "democracy" is idiotic. The country is in a state of near civil war and pushing Western puppets like Bhutto or Sharif is not going to restore order. Musharraf is in a tight spot and has little alternative but to declare martial law and clamp down on anybody undermining the security of the state, be it well-meaning lawyers or opportunistic foreign controlled politicians. The situation in Georgia is completely different in that there is widespread public disillusionment with their leadership. There are not conditions present which may result in a civil war though. If Saakashvili actually believed in and applied all those wonderful things he claimed to support, he wouldn't be blacking out the media or setting his attack dogs on the protestors, nor accuse them of being "Russian agents". (An old Saakashvili trick. Russia this, Russia that blah blah). Saakashvili made a career out of claiming the moral highground, yet when the chickens came home to roost, he was found wanting and turned out to be just another Bananastan windbag.

permalink quote Al

Democratic 7 November, 2007, 20:13

The signs are ominously similar- Democracy stifled, tanks and guns used to stifle unarmed protests, TV stations muzzled, mass arrests, Dictators bringing all all stops to stay in power. More ominously - Both US clients, both depend largely on US (read Bush)financial inputs, both 'hopefully' SOLID US Supporters in the war against terrorism - sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq! I'm talking about Pakistan and Georgia! Be forewarned - other surefire US 'Supported' Democracies!

permalink quote Democratic

Gill 7 November, 2007, 20:50

I too am appalled about the lack of coverage in the UK about Tblisi. I have written to the Prime Minister and to our two main TV channels to ask why there is no coverage. Had I not seen a newsflash on yahoo and the excellent coverage on RT TV, I would not have known about it. And the world should know about it. It was terrible to watch. Terrible.

permalink quote Gill

DaniYah 7 November, 2007, 21:12

Thanks, Democratic! Your warning to US- supported democracies is more than accurate. I cannot help but extend the warning to those who claim to be US allies in the "war on terror." Spain, Britain, and especially Iraq were hit with brutal "suicide" and other terror attacks while having US backed officials in power. Being a US ally in terror = attracting terror?! Also, thanks to Gil for writing to the officials and to the press. More people should do this. Some experts said recently that emails are the most effective way for the public to get their message across.

permalink quote DaniYah

Sharinau 7 November, 2007, 21:23

One the main streets in the Georgian capital is actually called George W. Bush Avenue! featuring a massive portrait of the great American president. surprise in is not a bronze statue.need we say more about both great leaders?

permalink quote Sharinau

DaniYah 7 November, 2007, 21:29

"Pakistan.peoples.can be extremely violent and dangerous, aren't literate and who have lived in lawless areas for centuries. .people like this. democracy and voting has no meaning for them." Al, did you see the Reuters photos of the Pakistani lawyers and academics now leading the PEACEFUL protests against Musharraf? Polarizing the modern world along racial or cultural lines is not just highly inaccurate but a callous offense. If you judge by culture, Europeans have been among the least civilized and uneducated peoples of the world (led by the Vatican during the Crusades and the Dark Ages++.) Please apologize.

permalink quote DaniYah

Al 7 November, 2007, 21:46

Gordon Brown and the BBC (which is more or less a New Labour mouthpiece) are hardly going to rush towards criticising their own puppet. The Establishment invested a lot of propaganda effort and money into trumpeting the new democratic dawn in the newly "liberated" ex-Soviet blocks and turning on their own people would be rather embarrassing. They're probably hoping that he can subdue the unhappy masses before commencing with business as usual (the typical Russian invasion stories) which the BBC and the Economist so love to trumpet. It would be interesting to see what Rupert Murdoch will make of this and whether he will choose to throw his weight behind Saakashvili or throw him to the wolves in favour of somebody else, seeing as News Corp now has a stake in Imedi.

permalink quote Al

Sevodnya_Net 7 November, 2007, 23:02

To DaniYah: Ref your last post about Pakistan and Europe. You know when you read something and say to yourself "I wish I'd written that or been able to express it so well". I'd just like to say I agree 100% (whatever else we disagree on!) The answer to RT's question must now be "yes" - democracy is under fire - from one quarter or another, who knows . And I'm also fed up with the BBC's coverage of Georgia, although it would be unrealistic to expect it to devote the same time as RT does. There is plenty on the website tho.

permalink quote Sevodnya_Net

Daniel 7 November, 2007, 23:53

I don't think it's fair and reasonable to call the BBC a govt mouthpiece. The BBC is one of the finest public broadcasters, and it's completly independent from any govt intervention. And just because govenments like georgia and Ukraine appear pro-western doesn't mean there's a propaganda campaign and Russia isn't that clean too, what about their involement in Abkazia? or supporting dictatorships such as Uzbekistan?

permalink quote Daniel

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