Georgia unrest: democracy under fire?, page 4


Norman 11 November, 2007, 22:22	AND THE DRAMA IN GEORGIA GOES ON! Let's see what form the 15 Day State Of Emergency takes. How soon will the independent radio and TV stations go back on the air? The government crackdown was one of the most brutal I've seen against peaceful protesters and the news media. Let's hope and pray that the Georgian president is serious about free and fair elections. permalink quote 0 Norman
fred 12 November, 2007, 09:19	Norman. are you kidding ? if the election are to be free and fair , it suppose the "US cash-machine" do not interfere in the process .! wathever is going to be the result , someone is going to be unhappy . WHY not let the georgians decide by themselve ? and get the rope ready for the one interfering or corrupted or manipulating?? . IP. thanks , but since i am french and been many times to russia , something always ashame and surprise me : the "News" depicted mostly about Russia are 10 to 15 years old or extremly specific (as a lost spot in the middle of nowhere ) shown as a general situation . without mentioning that in USA about 35 Millions don't even have the possibility of buying an aspirine , in UK in some parts of the country , you could feel like being in a the times of "oliver twist" and in paris , there is so many homeless sometimes walking in some streets at night , you have to be carefull where you put yours feet not to walk on some homeless . sevodnya . YES , there isn't a single western country to be the exemple to follow . i uderstand your point , but don't you think it's the same than in USA or UK , where most peoples are so much into the "credit trap" that one of the most important thing in their life is economic growth ??? and for that reason , even if their Gov. is pretending to fight for liberty and democracy , they have to accept some "inconveniences" as Guantanamo (the worst Goulag of the 21th century ) or war against whomever for democracy and freedom , where the real target is to try to keep the gallon of gas at 1$ , while giving lots of works to the only industry they don't want (or cannot) import from China (weapons and military furnitures ) on tax-payers expenses ?? permalink quote 0 fred
Rob 12 November, 2007, 11:42	Having lived in Russia and Georgia for 11 years, I can only say what a difference the present Geogian government has made in a short time, they took over a corrupt and non accountable government and country and had to start from base, everybody knows that Russia will do anything to keep this country unstable, it wants to keep Abkhazia for serious political and economic reasons, it is well known what they are, Russia does not want or care about Ossetia but it can't have one without the other. The police brutality was heavy handed to break up the protesters but I know for a fact that serious rioting and storming of the parliament was destined for the weekend, these facts have been told to me by the people concerned, whether this was just an escalation due to frustration or as guidence from external dark forces as was the term mentioned I am not sure, but what were the alternatives, they were not moving, also they could not continue blocking and paralysing a main thoroughfare in the capital. what else could the authorities do, the protesters were given several days to carry out their democratic right to protest then when election time came they could vote for whatever party they wish, BUT is this the ultimate problem, the opposition know they can not win so resorting to anachy was their major weapon. Rob permalink quote 0 Rob
xx 13 November, 2007, 08:13	Rob in the previous post should be a well known reporter with a even better known TV station. I used to enjoy his insighful reporting from the former Soviet Union. While normally spectical to all those conspiracy theories, I actually for once do believe him when he says " know for a fact". My only question to you, Rob, is where were you when the recent riots in Tbilisi happened? I have not seen you reporting from the streets of the Georgian capital this time around. did I miss anything? permalink quote 0 xx
rob 13 November, 2007, 16:14	XX Sorry, perhaps I missed something, I was in the streets of Tbilisi during the disturbance, but what makes you think that I am or was a reporter. 'know for a fact' is that I met and spoke to people who were intending to cause more serious problems at the weekend. Rob permalink quote 0 rob
xx 13 November, 2007, 19:08	Rob, my apologies then. Case of mistaken identity - there is a reporter called Rob with, in my opinion next-to-none knowledge of Georgia. I have not seen him reporting from Tbilisi this time around which was a pity, the guy is really good & unbiased. Young folks working for this chanel ( Russian Today) is doing their job all right but it is rather obvious that they were not around when Gamsakhurdia was elected President neither were they present when Shevardnadze returned to hero's welcome back in 1992 permalink quote 0 xx
Sullivan 15 November, 2007, 11:31	Contrary to what is claimed by certain regular anti-Russian commentators here, Russia is NOT a human-rights disaster. Indeed, the United States and United Kingdom have developed a habit of human rights violations and abuses that would have been unheard of even under while the Georgian duo, Stalin and Beria, were terrorising Russia. permalink quote 0 Sullivan
Lasha 15 November, 2007, 12:50	I study in United States of America, and even there, in the birthplace of modern democracy I've seen such, and even more severe actions of police. But Georgian people are very proud, and can not get familiar with the fact that someone, or some force may go against their will, which was not very logical. And despite the real reason, which was different from the official (and it happens everywhere) the official reason was very logical, and the tools and weapons that police used was not new for democratic countries (for example United States, where almost every anti-Bush demonstrations are ended with police using the water. Just the actions of policemen were too aggressive, for which government must punish aggressive policemen, to make clear that it was not their aim, and it was just a result of private people's (police)action. For Georgia it would be a crash, if government would be overthrown, considering that several opposition leaders are thought of treachery and membership of FSB agency. So it was not good to use force, but it was better for people then a new conflicts or government changes in country, which is in stabile condition for just 4 years.And let Georgian people recall, in what conditions did they used to live, and then they would not worry about absolutely non-important difference of election date. permalink quote 0 Lasha
Sevodnya_Net 15 November, 2007, 16:29	It's really important that the elections in January are fair and moreover seen to be fair (not that that will probably satisfy some people). Fairness includes adequate media exposure for the rival candidates, even if few if any carry much credibility. I believe President Saakashvili is the best thing to happen to Georgia for a long time (even including the rising rugby team!) but his reputation has definitely been tarnished, particularly in the west (many eastern-based commentators hate him anyway). It's hard to justify the use of rubber bullets for example, also the closing down of Imedi. It would be better for Georgian democracy if a strong rival candidate emerged, untainted by corruption and suggestion of manipulation by "dark forces". In the meantime tho the opposition have got the early elections they wanted. (Who was it who said 'be careful what you wish for in case it happens'?) If you'll forgive me I now have to go and hide from Gordon "Josef" Brown, Ian "Beria" Blair and the Stalin-like purges currently sweeping Britain :-) permalink quote 0 Sevodnya_Net
Norman 16 November, 2007, 01:40	Yes, I believe there can be free and fair elections in Georgia, with a candidates debate on state radio and tv. The private media should also do this, as I'm sure some advertisers would want to buy into such an important event. My major concern was and still is the severe crackdown on the protesters and media. This seriously hurt Georgia's reputation. So let's wait and see the Georgian president's next move. The world is watching too. permalink quote 0 Norman
oleg 16 November, 2007, 02:15	[Edited out - RT] let us remember this is about Georga,not the U.S.or U.K. Anyway, I hope the Georgan's get a communist government. Who the hell needs democracy?? permalink quote 0 oleg
EverRedRussian 16 November, 2007, 10:46	+1 to Oleg permalink quote 0 EverRedRussian
Mike 18 November, 2007, 02:15	Who cares? What has Georgia ever done for the world apart from inflict Russia with it's leader to brainwash Russian people and rape the country and its real people to benefit the Jewish communists. Let Georgia do what it wants just the same as monkeys do what they want when they swing in trees in the jungle permalink quote 0 Mike
Al2 18 November, 2007, 07:21	Rob. Having read a lot a[bout] Georgia in recent years myself can you please explain to me the big changes for the good of the common people in Georgia? From what I have read and seen in the news it seems to me that there is a small percentage of people making a lot of money while the vast majority eek by living hand to mouth. What has Shakashvilli done? I did notice the new Dodge Ram trucks used to put down the riot and the well attired police. The oil companies are investing in oil lines but do the people benefit from that? I also hear that the best jobs are in the military and police force. I really liked what I heard about the government changing the standards of food/caloric intake of the people. Seems that when they used the standard of 2500 cal a day per person the numbers did not turn out to their liking so they changed the number to 2300. VOILA!!! Everyone had enough to eat! At least on paper. Is this the progress that Shakashvilli has brought to Georgia? Perhaps the people are no better off than they were before. Except for the friends of Shakashvilli. I wonder. permalink quote 0 Al2
Sevodnya_Net 18 November, 2007, 21:07	Is it just me, or is there something a bit spooky about "Nashi" rallying in Moscow support of democracy in Georgia. Actually maybe what I mean is not so much "spooky" as "downright hypocritical" permalink quote 0 Sevodnya_Net
Al2 19 November, 2007, 07:13	It's just you Sevod. Or is it the Red Army soldiers under your bed? :) Only a jab my friend. On the one hand it seems strange to me being American, we have very few (BSA?)organizations oriented along these lines if any in America. On the other considering some aspects of the Russian people it does not seem out of place at all. I am currently writing this from Gomel Belarus, I am in my daughters bedroom at her computer. There are 3 books on a shelf amongst many others. 2 of them are by Victor Suvorov, Choice and another titled Control. This is strange to me also, American youth would rarely own such a book let alone take time to read a book. Why not encourage such things as Nashi? Is it better to let the kids sniff glue in dark corners on the street? Perhaps the youth of Nashi should be toting AK-47s in the streets of Baghdad in the war on terror? A lot of young Americans are dying for oil Sevod. I was in the Boy Scouts of America as a youngster, America the great and all of that was the theme mainly. Where is the hypocrisy? permalink quote 0 Al2
Sevodnya_Net 19 November, 2007, 09:19	Al2 It's great that young people demonstrate for political causes, and shameful that US soldiers are toting their AK47s in Baghdad or whereever. However, none of that eases my concern that this is a government sponsored event using the admittedly horrible TV pictures from Tbilisi for their own ends. When I see the same organisation demonstrating against something that, let's say. is unlikely to have the approval of the government, then my unease will be lessened. By the way, I have to say yet again, that my comments are not inspired by Russophobia, far from it. permalink quote 0 Sevodnya_Net
rob 19 November, 2007, 10:31	A12 I see that you have READ a lot about Georgia, well if you have read anything at all meaningful you would realise that the brief time the present government has been in power is to bring investment to the country, I am not politically motivated by either side but I can see what is happening and when you start from nothing this is important, without investment you could not build this financial base to work from, stability will bring other investors to the country which is what had started to happen, the jobs are happening and more will follow, the problem with the Georgian people is that they will not wait for these changes which other countries had to wait decades and even centuries to acquire, yes there have been mistakes by the government (name me a government in the world who hasn't made them) but because this is a small country everything is magnified out of proportion, why quote silly comments about calories a day when the bigger picture is available for all to see, does Saakashvili and his friends take the new roads to bed with them, can they run off to London with the the new banks and hotels etc, if you want to look at corruption look no further than the major powers in the world, both East and West. permalink quote 0 rob

Norman 11 November, 2007, 22:22

AND THE DRAMA IN GEORGIA GOES ON! Let's see what form the 15 Day State Of Emergency takes. How soon will the independent radio and TV stations go back on the air? The government crackdown was one of the most brutal I've seen against peaceful protesters and the news media. Let's hope and pray that the Georgian president is serious about free and fair elections.

permalink quote Norman

fred 12 November, 2007, 09:19

Norman. are you kidding ? if the election are to be free and fair , it suppose the "US cash-machine" do not interfere in the process .! wathever is going to be the result , someone is going to be unhappy . WHY not let the georgians decide by themselve ? and get the rope ready for the one interfering or corrupted or manipulating?? . IP. thanks , but since i am french and been many times to russia , something always ashame and surprise me : the "News" depicted mostly about Russia are 10 to 15 years old or extremly specific (as a lost spot in the middle of nowhere ) shown as a general situation . without mentioning that in USA about 35 Millions don't even have the possibility of buying an aspirine , in UK in some parts of the country , you could feel like being in a the times of "oliver twist" and in paris , there is so many homeless sometimes walking in some streets at night , you have to be carefull where you put yours feet not to walk on some homeless . sevodnya . YES , there isn't a single western country to be the exemple to follow . i uderstand your point , but don't you think it's the same than in USA or UK , where most peoples are so much into the "credit trap" that one of the most important thing in their life is economic growth ??? and for that reason , even if their Gov. is pretending to fight for liberty and democracy , they have to accept some "inconveniences" as Guantanamo (the worst Goulag of the 21th century ) or war against whomever for democracy and freedom , where the real target is to try to keep the gallon of gas at 1$ , while giving lots of works to the only industry they don't want (or cannot) import from China (weapons and military furnitures ) on tax-payers expenses ??

permalink quote fred

Rob 12 November, 2007, 11:42

Having lived in Russia and Georgia for 11 years, I can only say what a difference the present Geogian government has made in a short time, they took over a corrupt and non accountable government and country and had to start from base, everybody knows that Russia will do anything to keep this country unstable, it wants to keep Abkhazia for serious political and economic reasons, it is well known what they are, Russia does not want or care about Ossetia but it can't have one without the other. The police brutality was heavy handed to break up the protesters but I know for a fact that serious rioting and storming of the parliament was destined for the weekend, these facts have been told to me by the people concerned, whether this was just an escalation due to frustration or as guidence from external dark forces as was the term mentioned I am not sure, but what were the alternatives, they were not moving, also they could not continue blocking and paralysing a main thoroughfare in the capital. what else could the authorities do, the protesters were given several days to carry out their democratic right to protest then when election time came they could vote for whatever party they wish, BUT is this the ultimate problem, the opposition know they can not win so resorting to anachy was their major weapon. Rob

permalink quote Rob

xx 13 November, 2007, 08:13

Rob in the previous post should be a well known reporter with a even better known TV station. I used to enjoy his insighful reporting from the former Soviet Union. While normally spectical to all those conspiracy theories, I actually for once do believe him when he says " know for a fact". My only question to you, Rob, is where were you when the recent riots in Tbilisi happened? I have not seen you reporting from the streets of the Georgian capital this time around. did I miss anything?

permalink quote xx

rob 13 November, 2007, 16:14

XX Sorry, perhaps I missed something, I was in the streets of Tbilisi during the disturbance, but what makes you think that I am or was a reporter. 'know for a fact' is that I met and spoke to people who were intending to cause more serious problems at the weekend. Rob

permalink quote rob

xx 13 November, 2007, 19:08

Rob, my apologies then. Case of mistaken identity - there is a reporter called Rob with, in my opinion next-to-none knowledge of Georgia. I have not seen him reporting from Tbilisi this time around which was a pity, the guy is really good & unbiased. Young folks working for this chanel ( Russian Today) is doing their job all right but it is rather obvious that they were not around when Gamsakhurdia was elected President neither were they present when Shevardnadze returned to hero's welcome back in 1992

permalink quote xx

Sullivan 15 November, 2007, 11:31

Contrary to what is claimed by certain regular anti-Russian commentators here, Russia is NOT a human-rights disaster. Indeed, the United States and United Kingdom have developed a habit of human rights violations and abuses that would have been unheard of even under while the Georgian duo, Stalin and Beria, were terrorising Russia.

permalink quote Sullivan

Lasha 15 November, 2007, 12:50

I study in United States of America, and even there, in the birthplace of modern democracy I've seen such, and even more severe actions of police. But Georgian people are very proud, and can not get familiar with the fact that someone, or some force may go against their will, which was not very logical. And despite the real reason, which was different from the official (and it happens everywhere) the official reason was very logical, and the tools and weapons that police used was not new for democratic countries (for example United States, where almost every anti-Bush demonstrations are ended with police using the water. Just the actions of policemen were too aggressive, for which government must punish aggressive policemen, to make clear that it was not their aim, and it was just a result of private people's (police)action. For Georgia it would be a crash, if government would be overthrown, considering that several opposition leaders are thought of treachery and membership of FSB agency. So it was not good to use force, but it was better for people then a new conflicts or government changes in country, which is in stabile condition for just 4 years.And let Georgian people recall, in what conditions did they used to live, and then they would not worry about absolutely non-important difference of election date.

permalink quote Lasha

Sevodnya_Net 15 November, 2007, 16:29

It's really important that the elections in January are fair and moreover seen to be fair (not that that will probably satisfy some people). Fairness includes adequate media exposure for the rival candidates, even if few if any carry much credibility. I believe President Saakashvili is the best thing to happen to Georgia for a long time (even including the rising rugby team!) but his reputation has definitely been tarnished, particularly in the west (many eastern-based commentators hate him anyway). It's hard to justify the use of rubber bullets for example, also the closing down of Imedi. It would be better for Georgian democracy if a strong rival candidate emerged, untainted by corruption and suggestion of manipulation by "dark forces". In the meantime tho the opposition have got the early elections they wanted. (Who was it who said 'be careful what you wish for in case it happens'?) If you'll forgive me I now have to go and hide from Gordon "Josef" Brown, Ian "Beria" Blair and the Stalin-like purges currently sweeping Britain :-)

permalink quote Sevodnya_Net

Norman 16 November, 2007, 01:40

Yes, I believe there can be free and fair elections in Georgia, with a candidates debate on state radio and tv. The private media should also do this, as I'm sure some advertisers would want to buy into such an important event. My major concern was and still is the severe crackdown on the protesters and media. This seriously hurt Georgia's reputation. So let's wait and see the Georgian president's next move. The world is watching too.

permalink quote Norman

oleg 16 November, 2007, 02:15

[Edited out - RT] let us remember this is about Georga,not the U.S.or U.K. Anyway, I hope the Georgan's get a communist government. Who the hell needs democracy??

permalink quote oleg

EverRedRussian 16 November, 2007, 10:46

+1 to Oleg

permalink quote EverRedRussian

Mike 18 November, 2007, 02:15

Who cares? What has Georgia ever done for the world apart from inflict Russia with it's leader to brainwash Russian people and rape the country and its real people to benefit the Jewish communists. Let Georgia do what it wants just the same as monkeys do what they want when they swing in trees in the jungle

permalink quote Mike

Al2 18 November, 2007, 07:21

Rob. Having read a lot a[bout] Georgia in recent years myself can you please explain to me the big changes for the good of the common people in Georgia? From what I have read and seen in the news it seems to me that there is a small percentage of people making a lot of money while the vast majority eek by living hand to mouth. What has Shakashvilli done? I did notice the new Dodge Ram trucks used to put down the riot and the well attired police. The oil companies are investing in oil lines but do the people benefit from that? I also hear that the best jobs are in the military and police force. I really liked what I heard about the government changing the standards of food/caloric intake of the people. Seems that when they used the standard of 2500 cal a day per person the numbers did not turn out to their liking so they changed the number to 2300. VOILA!!! Everyone had enough to eat! At least on paper. Is this the progress that Shakashvilli has brought to Georgia? Perhaps the people are no better off than they were before. Except for the friends of Shakashvilli. I wonder.

permalink quote Al2

Sevodnya_Net 18 November, 2007, 21:07

Is it just me, or is there something a bit spooky about "Nashi" rallying in Moscow support of democracy in Georgia. Actually maybe what I mean is not so much "spooky" as "downright hypocritical"

permalink quote Sevodnya_Net

Al2 19 November, 2007, 07:13

It's just you Sevod. Or is it the Red Army soldiers under your bed? :) Only a jab my friend. On the one hand it seems strange to me being American, we have very few (BSA?)organizations oriented along these lines if any in America. On the other considering some aspects of the Russian people it does not seem out of place at all. I am currently writing this from Gomel Belarus, I am in my daughters bedroom at her computer. There are 3 books on a shelf amongst many others. 2 of them are by Victor Suvorov, Choice and another titled Control. This is strange to me also, American youth would rarely own such a book let alone take time to read a book. Why not encourage such things as Nashi? Is it better to let the kids sniff glue in dark corners on the street? Perhaps the youth of Nashi should be toting AK-47s in the streets of Baghdad in the war on terror? A lot of young Americans are dying for oil Sevod. I was in the Boy Scouts of America as a youngster, America the great and all of that was the theme mainly. Where is the hypocrisy?

permalink quote Al2

Sevodnya_Net 19 November, 2007, 09:19

Al2 It's great that young people demonstrate for political causes, and shameful that US soldiers are toting their AK47s in Baghdad or whereever. However, none of that eases my concern that this is a government sponsored event using the admittedly horrible TV pictures from Tbilisi for their own ends. When I see the same organisation demonstrating against something that, let's say. is unlikely to have the approval of the government, then my unease will be lessened. By the way, I have to say yet again, that my comments are not inspired by Russophobia, far from it.

permalink quote Sevodnya_Net

rob 19 November, 2007, 10:31

A12 I see that you have READ a lot about Georgia, well if you have read anything at all meaningful you would realise that the brief time the present government has been in power is to bring investment to the country, I am not politically motivated by either side but I can see what is happening and when you start from nothing this is important, without investment you could not build this financial base to work from, stability will bring other investors to the country which is what had started to happen, the jobs are happening and more will follow, the problem with the Georgian people is that they will not wait for these changes which other countries had to wait decades and even centuries to acquire, yes there have been mistakes by the government (name me a government in the world who hasn't made them) but because this is a small country everything is magnified out of proportion, why quote silly comments about calories a day when the bigger picture is available for all to see, does Saakashvili and his friends take the new roads to bed with them, can they run off to London with the the new banks and hotels etc, if you want to look at corruption look no further than the major powers in the world, both East and West.

permalink quote rob

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