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Has the human rights situation in Russia improved during Putin’s term of office?
sam 10 February, 2008, 09:34 Sevodnya_Net wrote - the President made reference to Al Qaida in Chechnya, a lie which echoed the similar deception employed by George W. Bush to justify the Iraq War. May I ask what nationalities and who are the following Samir Saleh Abdullah Al-Suwailem killed in Georgia by special forces in 2002. Abu al-Walid killed 2004 by a Russia sniper. Abu Omar al-Saif killed 2004 Abu Hafs al-Urduni killed 2004. And these are few of the commanders and not fighters.Every single one an arab trained with and knew Osama. How about the hostage takers in Beslan? Among the alleged planners Abu Omar al-Saif and Abu Zais both Saudis.both killed there. Hostage takers included 2 British Algerians -Osman Larussi and Yacine Benalia both killed there.Also an unidentified black male believed to have been from muslim northern Nigeria. Do not think these guys were with the peace corp.Next you will tell me the 9/11 attackers were Saudi tourists. I will do one thing which i said I will never do since Mazapan6 said that Slavery against blacks was seen as a norm since it was a primitive times, and that is reply his post one more time. Well my Estonian friend,Smart people can express what they want in short direct replies and statments.Dull people and these that have nothing to say, try to hide their ignorance in volumes of matter.Bravo! you had been to the States then again who has not?Once again Mazapan6 Goodbye keep up your good work at your biased anti Russian and racist propaganda.
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SrpskiCrnogorac 10 February, 2008, 10:22 To Sevodnya_Net: First of all, Russia can´t and never invaded its own territory but had to declare state of emergency or state of war on part of its teritory (with the usual consequences for human rights and democracy) due to illegal armed forces and terroristic activities there. You wanted to talk about human rights, but your post developed to a plead for an independent Chechenya (if western politicians would have the boldness to support it, Russia would have (in accordance to international law) to declare war to such states, something I hope Serbia will also do in the Kosovo case). When the former german chancellor Schroeder critisized Putin for his actions in Chechenya, Putin invited him and the West in general to participate with troops in fighting those terrorists, but Schroeder thankfully rejected the invitation.
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Sevodnya_Net 10 February, 2008, 11:04 Sam, Nationality-wise of course none of those you mention are/were Chechens. I am not denying for one moment that Islamic fundamentalists haven't come to the Chechen republic and that mujahideen came to fight alongside the Chechen army during the wars. There is no evidence however that Al Qaida has ever gained serious credibility there, although given the scale of the trauma experienced by the people it would seem on the face of it to be a fertile recruiting ground for them. It is certainly untrue for President Putin to say, as he did, that Al Qaida was a serious threat at the time of the invasion. Incidentally I have just read the wikipedia article on Abu Omar and I would suggest it needs one of those health and credibility warnings accorded to many of its colleagues. I'm not saying it is inaccurate but it contains some unsubstantiated allegations that the wikipedia folk are normally quite hot on. The identity of the Beslan hostage takers is open to some question. It seems that most were Ingush bandits - it wouldn't have been hard for the perpetrators of this outrage to engage Ingush recruits given the enmity between many Ingush and Ossetian people. Of course since the stifling of the Chechen resistance we have seen growing unrest in other Muslim republics of the North Caucasus: this unrest has been brewing for many years. Before Putin arrived on the scene the Russian authorities to their credit seemed to be engaging in dialogue with the locals to address their grievances (none of which included a demand for indepenence I might add). Since 1999 however the policy of blanket repression of any form of Islamic expression has only caused increased resentment among certain elements, many of whom live in isolated mountain communities with customs and traditions which are very, very different from those of Russia. This policy seems rather short-sighted as it can only lead to further militancy, further outrages and all the misery that goes ith it. In fact, it's a vicious circle of repression, violent backlash, reactive repression and so on. But it's all in the name of the War on Terror, so it's OK. By the way I largely support a lot of the actions being taken by allies in Afganistan, which might seem strange, but I suggest it's not as strange as the position of condemning that out of hand and yet turning a blind eye to what Russia is doing in the North Caucasus.
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Post-Graduate 10 February, 2008, 11:51 In MBA studies, there is Maslow's theory - Maslow's hierarchy of needs is often depicted as a pyramid consisting of five levels: the four lower levels are grouped together as being associated with physiological needs, while the top level is termed growth needs associated with psychological needs. Deficiency needs must be met first. Once these are met, seeking to satisfy growth needs drives personal growth. The higher needs in this hierarchy only come into focus when the lower needs in the pyramid are satisfied. There is the TIPPING POINT in each society, in some this comes earlier, in others little later.According to some, Russians invairably believe in the Richness and greatness of their culture and land. Only when that tipping point, i.e.,when the average PER CAPITA income of the russian citizen is as high or higher than any major DEVELOPED country of the world, will this TIPPING POINT be reached.Only then a FULL/UNABATED DEMOCRACY flourish,as because only then the Russians will have reached the point of SELF-ESTEEM. USA, for all its hype and bluster, is still after all a 'Managed Demecracy', which masks the insecurities that the "CONTROLLING POWERS" feel, and which they try to overcome by agressiveness and attempts at subjugation! However, the experts might still be "wrong"!But Putin can hardly be accused of that fault.
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Sevodnya_Net 10 February, 2008, 13:35 "You wanted to talk about human rights, but your post developed to a plead for an independent Chechenya " It didn't, actually, although as a matter of fact I believe that that would be the best way of resolving the human rights issues there. It is, I agree, a controversial position which many pro-Chechen commentators would not agree with. "Putin invited (Schroeder) and the West in general to participate with troops in fighting those terrorists, but Schroeder thankfully rejected the invitation" Of course not. I don't think Herr Schroeder was ever in any danger of extending his friendship with the Russian President THAT far! Of course also, as I explained, it is very much a moot point that Chechnya counted as a bona fide part of the Russian Federation in 1994 when it was invaded. Many people would reject the idea that the re-annexing of that territory counted as an "internal security matter" And of course it's also true that the West wasn't going to interfere with Russian aggression - certainly not during the Yeltsin years when they were falling over themselves to support the Russian President. Contrast the position with Serbia which, being a smaller country, is much more easily pushed around. Such is the way of the world I'm afraid, but occasionally some of us like to speak out against that way :-)
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sam 10 February, 2008, 14:22 but Sevodnya_Net you said there were no Al Qaida in Chechenya now you agree that there were islamist fundamentalists there.So how do you know they were not Al Qaida? And who are the Al Qaida? If not just a better known group of Islamist Fundamentals. The Identity of most hostage takers are known.Eg the two britons i mentioned.If they were not killed there and their bodies identified so were are they now? Dont think they are hiding in London just to prove Russians right. Going to the same Wiki you were using. If RT would let me post the list. Alleged planners and financiers Shamil Basayev - Chechen national, took ultimate responsibility for the attack, died in Ingushetia in 2006 Kamel Rabat Bouralha - foreign national detained in Chechnya in 2004, suspected of organizing the attack Abu Omar al-Saif - Saudi national and accused financer, died in Dagestan in 2005 Magas Akhmed/Magomet Yevloyev - Ingush-Chechen warlord close to Basayev, initially placed at the school and even among the identified bodies Abu Zaid - Saudi national and accused organizer, died in Ingushetia in 2005 Hostage takers Some of the hostage-takers, who numbered at least 32 and included a shahidka women, are tentatively identified as: Alleged leaders Polkovnik Ruslan Khuchbarov - reputed group leader (disputed identity), possibly escaped and at large Abdullah Vladimir Khodov - an ethnic Ukrainian from nearby Elkhotovo, where he was wanted for a bomb attack (though Basayev has since said he was an FSB double agent sent to infliltrate the rebel movement), former pupil of the Beslan SNO Fantomas - an unidentified bald Slav (he took off his mask) thought to have been a bodyguard to Shamil Basayev, nationality unknown but possibly an ethnic Russian Ali Taziyev - former Ingush policeman-turned-rebel who had allegedly led the negotiations on behalf of the hostage takers, some allege an alias/stolen identity of Polkovnik or Magas (Yevloyev), with the conflicting further official documents alleging he was an organizer but not present at the school. Identified male militants Magomed Aushev - a native of Ingushetia Yacine Benalia - a British-Algerian who had already been reported killed earlier[86] Sultan Kamurzayev - a Chechen from Kazakhstan Magomet Khochubarov - a native of Chechnya Han-Pashi Kulayev - one-armed older brother of Nur-Pashi, a former bodyguard of Basayev, released from the Russian prison before the attack Nur-Pashi Kulayev - a 24-year-old Chechen recruited to help his brother Han-Pashi, the sole known surviving hostage-taker who was sentenced to life in prison Adam Kushtov - a 17-year-old Ingush who had fled the 1992 ethnic cleansing in North Ossetia to Ingushetia Abdul-Azim Labazanov - a 31-year-old Chechen, born in Kazakhstan, initially fought on the federal side in the First Chechen War in the group led by Ruslan Labazanov Osman Larussi - a British-Algerian, who had already been reported killed earlier Arsen Merzhoyev - a 25-year-old native of Engenoi, Chechnya Mayrbek Shaybekhanov - a Chechen militant from Engenoi, arrested in Ingushetia and then released shortly before the school attack Issa Torshkhoyev - a 26-year-old Chechen refugee in Ingushetia, wanted since the shootout in 2003 when his home was raided by the police. Bei-Alla Tsechoyev (also spelled Bay or Ala) - a 31-year-old Ingush, brother of Musa, had a prior conviction for possessing illegal firearms Musa Tsechoyev - a 35-year-old native of Sagopshi in Ingushetia, owned the GAZ-66 truck that drove the hostage-takers to the school Identified female militants In April 2005, the identity of the two female suicide bombers was revealed. Roza Nagayeva - a Chechen woman from the village of Kirov-Yurt in Chechnya's Vedensky District, sister of Amnat Nagayeva, who is suspected of being the suicide bomber having blown up one of the two Russian airliners brought down on August 24, 2004; Roza Nagayeva has previously mistakenly been named as having carried out the bombing of Moscow's Rizhskaya metro station on August 31, 2004 Mairam Taburova - a Chechen woman from the village of Mair-Tub in Chechnya's Shalinsky District Dont look like bandits and their demands did not reflect on them being bandits. Nor do they look like a list of freedom fights more like a band of extremist Islamic fundamentalists.For one, this list is not a figure of someones imagination.
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sam 10 February, 2008, 14:36 Would like to add to my last post. The attack on Beslam had only one function as the hostage takers demand of Russian troops leaving Chechenya was unrealistic.Which was to spark an all caucasus war by getting the christian north Ossetians going for revange.Putin was clever as to closure the border between then rather then let histoy of blood letting between the two republics start again.The border was closed not to prevent chechens going in but Ossetians going into chechenya.
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David 10 February, 2008, 20:30 Yep, I guess Putin has handled things pretty well. Things don't happen over night and those incidents that have been brought to his attention re. abuse of human rights have been dealt with and dealt with severely. Whilst there are those ranting and raving about 'how bad things are in Russia' how about wasting your energy on getting things sorted out in countries like Zimbabwe and South Africa where human rights issues are the worst in the world. Russia is doing fine.
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Sevodnya_Net 11 February, 2008, 00:38 Sam, I'm not sure what is the point of your long (tut tut!) post listing the names of alleged or proven terrorists. I don't deny that Chechens have been involved in terrorist attacks and I know all about Shamil Basaev thank you very much. None of that in any way excuses the crimes I mentioned previously. Re Putin closing the border between North Ossetia and Ingushetia, this is a cheap point I know but as we're going that way :-) it might be worth pointing out that many of the parents are still to this day trying to find out exactly what happened, who was involved and the role of the security forces, in particular the very border guards who allowed such a huge contingent of armed gunmen and women to travel seemingly unchallenged to the school in North Ossetia. The same question was asked of the border guards who obligingly let Basaev's convoy travel to and from Budyonnovsk for his hostage-taking excursion at the hospital there. The trouble with all this is that it's never quite as straightforward as many like to make out and the deeper you dig the smellier it gets. With anything to do with this you need at least two independent sources because it is impossible to believe anything that comes simply from one side. You would think that for a major atrocity like Beslan there would be a painstaking forensic aftermath, but in fact most forensic evidence was cleared away rapidly after the siege ended. There is also evidence from many of the witnesses in the school that the shooting actually started from the outside. None of that of course excuses the hostage taking in the first place, and it is the hostage takers, whoever they were, who must take full responsibility. David, I assume you are joking when you claim that all the human rights abuses in Chechnya have been summarily dealt with by the authorities. There seems scant chance of that when the chief abusers ARE the authorities.
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sam 11 February, 2008, 09:17 Sevodnya_Net posted-the President(Putin) made reference to Al Qaida in Chechnya, a lie which echoed the similar deception employed by George W. Bush to justify the Iraq War. Then posted-I am not denying for one moment that Islamic fundamentalists haven't come to the Chechen republic and that mujahideen came to fight alongside the Chechen army during the wars Also posted-The identity of the Beslan hostage takers is open to some question. It seems that most were Ingush bandits - it wouldn't have been hard for the perpetrators of this outrage to engage Ingush recruits given the enmity between many Ingush and Ossetian people Now He seems to not understand why I posted a long list of the hostage takers and their nationalities which are mostly Chechens and and some Ingush.Wish you make up your mind on what line you are sticking with. Eh Sevodnya_Net, there are no border guards between North Ossetia and Chechnya.Russian Federation is one country and movement of people within the country is not controled.Do not remember seeing any border guards between England and Scotland too. After the incidence the army was placed between them, hence the border was closed.I also do not think the hostage takers traveled in a convoy all the way there unless they were retarded and everyone else closed their eyes. As for who started shooting fire makes no difference.Its who was sick and evil as to take hundreds of children hostage in the first place that matters.
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Sevodnya_Net 11 February, 2008, 10:51 Just a further point about Beslan: Chechnya has never been at war with North Ossetia: the two countries are separated by Ingushetia which WAS at war with North Ossetia over the disputed Prigorodny region. It's interesting to note that when Chechnya elected its government in 1991 President Dudaev allowed the Ingush part of the then Checheno-Ingush ASSR to secede immediately from the new republic.
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Sevodnya_Net 11 February, 2008, 11:43 "there are no border guards between North Ossetia and Chechnya. No indeed (see my previous post!) "Russian Federation is one country and movement of people within the country is not controled" Erm, there you are wrong, as anyone who has ever travelled to and from Chechnya for example will testify. There is no shortage of checkpoints populated by officers who will for a small fee will relieve you of anything valuable you may be carrying in exchange for a small fee :-) More importantly, my point, which I accept I have probably not made very well (oh for the skills of a Marzipan :-) ) is that the Russian President has consistently sought to portray the Chechen issue as simply one of the law and order of an "internal region" infiltrated as if from nowhere by Al Qaida and others. You quite rightly mention, and condemn, the terrorist acts carried out in the name of Chechnya but let me quote some words by a Russian journalist - they were written in 1995 not long after the first invasion: "The current dirty war in Chechnya is a detonator of Russia's state unity and national security. He who wants to get more closely acquainted with terrorism should support the preservation of Russian power over a country enveloped in the fires of an uprising. There will be no real terrorism while the war lasts. Terrorism is a weapon of the desperate; the last argument of people who have been defeated on the battlefield but do not admit their defeat. Russia will thus get its own Ulster and Bosnia, Corsica and the Basque Provinces, Palestine and Kashmir, Eritrea and Biafra "all in the same package". Eerily prophetic words so soon after the conflict began. I wonder if even the writer of those words tho could have forseen the measures Russia would use to propel the conflict at an accelerated rate to its "desperation" phase: President Dudaev, murdered by Yeltsin's administration after a promise of negotiation; Maskhadov, the most moderate of the rebels who was always open to negotiation, hunted down and murdered. Ex-president Zelimkan Yanderbiyev, murdered in exile by the FSB in 2004, just for good measure. There have been others, less well known. Russia's approach to this "problem" has veered betwen incompetence, panic and finally blanket repression, but the fact is that the issue of Chechnya has dominated and dictated Russia's path over the last few years. It is the human rights catastrophe that dare not speak its name in the country, except when the President wants to remind everyone about Al Qaida just before an election. I'd like to think that the President's curious body language during Friday's speech (hunched, head, down and frowning for most of it) betrayed at least a glimmer of remorse. Who knows. I don't think President Putin is an evil man - he has no doubt done things the way he was taught to deal with them and in the way he thought best, but try and tell me that thousands of people, Russians, Chechens, etc have not suffered because of it and - assuming I can muster so much as a smile, I will laugh in your face.
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sam 11 February, 2008, 12:00 Yes there is no direct contact between chechnya and North Ossetia. Sevodnya_Net keeps refering to those republics like seperate countries.They are not.No borders or passport control only a line on paper.The roads out of North Ossetia into Ingushetia and hence Chechnya(up north a distance of under 100km)were sealed aka border closed. As for blood leting between Christian Ossetian with muslim Ingush and chechens not just Ingush has been there for hundreds of years.Soviet union kept a strong control on that.There were no republics then mate. Its funny how some people make excuses for murders of children just to make a political statement. I for one know that there were two british sickos there.I am just sorry they died, an easy way out for the likes of those.They dont even come near the hijakers in New York or these who carried out the London bombing.
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Sevodnya_Net 11 February, 2008, 12:41 "As for blood leting between Christian Ossetian with muslim Ingush and chechens not just Ingush has been there for hundreds of years.Soviet union kept a strong control on that.There were no republics then mate. " Incorrect again I'm afraid. it was the exile of the Ingush people from Prigorodny during the Soviet time which was the catalyst for the post-Soviet conflict with North Ossetia, as Ossetians were settled in that area in their absence. Chechnya has existed as some form of self-governed entity with varying degrees of autonomy for as long as there has been a concept of modern statehood. With Ingushetia it formed the Checheno-Ingush ASSR; Dagestan, North Ossetia and Kabardino-Balkaria also existed as ASSRs in the Soviet Union, Adyghe and Karachay-Cherkessia were autonomous regions or oblasts. There is no evidence of any religious "blood letting" between Chechen and Ossetian people. Tensions have tended to be based on Ossetia's traditional loyalty to Moscow. The "only" agression by Chechens against their neighbours in recent times was the ill-starred incursion into Dagestan by that man Basaev again in 1999, although that was allegdy to "assist" their fellow muslims.
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sam 11 February, 2008, 12:52 Sevodnya_Net wrote:Terrorism is a weapon of the desperate; the last argument of people who have been defeated on the battlefield but do not admit their defeat. Russia will thus get its own Ulster and Bosnia, Corsica and the Basque Provinces, Palestine and Kashmir, Eritrea and Biafra "all in the same package". You seem to make it sound like Terrorism is a form of resistance fighting. Really not right including Biafra in the list.The Ibos(biafran main ethinc group then) were immidiately accepted back into Nigeria and rebuild.Within less then a year it was as if no war took place.The Ibos NEVER carried out any terrorist attack on anyone during or after the Nigerian Civil war,and are not even bitter about it and now see no reason for independance.Have many friends who are Nigerians both Ibos and other ethnic groups and had in fact been there several times. As far as I know the only Eritreans who had carried out terrorist acts were directed against the west as part of the whole Islamic fundamentalist network and not against ethiopia who they had conflict with. Sure you and Marzapan6 are not related as you keep refering at every occation possible:) Sevodnya_Net lets not diverse from Russia by bringing up other conflicts and wrongly using them as an example,as this has opened a new line of discussion all together.
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Sevodnya_Net 11 February, 2008, 16:25 Sam, Just to be clear - the words you refer to are a quote from a Russian newspaper. The reason I quoted them was not specifically to draw attention to the other places mentioned, but to show that even as early as the mid-nineties it was clear that this was yet another conflict which was likely to degenerate into terrorist outrages. The point being that it was the conflict that came first. Chechens didn't just start bombing and kidnapping out of the blue. All these outrages are to be condemned, but the tragedy is that it didn't have to come to this.
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sam 11 February, 2008, 19:57 Sevodnya_Net you said you quoted from a Russian paper.Pease state which and provide a link if possible as I think pinning such a statement on an unknown journalist is not fair,especially since its so detail. You wrote: More importantly, my point, which I accept I have probably not made very well (oh for the skills of a Marzipan :-) ) Sorry but the problem if you read back your own posts have nothing to do with you not making yourself clear but more to do with false statements.Like no Al Qaida, then yes fundamentalists present.Few Chechens in Baslem then shocked by my list of attackers showing mostly Chechens. Really Man,Seeing everything Russian as bad and painting Chechens sparkling clean and smelling of roses, does not make one look unbiased. Summary of Chechnya is simple.The republic declared independance which a federation can not afford.Yelsin made a mess of things during which time the republic was ran by warlords some of whom were not even chechen.It was never an independent country as noone in the world recognised it as such.Putin went into that part of his country to restore order.It was a bloody war with many atrocities on both sides(you can blaim Putin if you like or the troops) With the order restored, Islamic fundamentalist both Chechen and foreign are doing everything to prevent stability and peace for the Chechen people within the federation and trying to destablize the region.No point at defending them, they are not freedom fighters. That was a dark side of Putins time in office but I do not see him oppressing the Chechen people or any other ethnic group in Russian Federation.But is actively going after terrorists and fundamentalists.To those people human rights should not apply and therefore not a measure of Human rights situation under Putin.Same laws apply in Moscow and Grozny be it against abusive husbands or public disorder.
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Sevodnya_Net 11 February, 2008, 22:58 Sam The article I quoted from was by Andrei Illarionov and Boris Lvin. It appeared in Moskovskie Novosti in Feb 95. Actually, the authors are or were economists, not journalists, so apologies to them. I note that you are either not reading my posts fully or not understanding them (I couldn't blame you for that!) as you continually misrepresent what I'm saying. Our views on this in any case plainly differ so in the interests of not driving everyone else to distraction maybe we should call a truce and let someone else chip in :-)
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sam 12 February, 2008, 07:22 Thank you, will check them out.Oh read your post very well and understood them just fine.
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David 14 February, 2008, 13:00 Sam :- No, didn't say ALL HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES IN CHECHNYA HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH - what I had said was 'Yep, I guess Putin has handled things pretty well. Things don't happen over night and those incidents that have been brought to his attention re. abuse of human rights have been dealt with and dealt with severely.' This is a generalised statement to cover the whole country and not Chechnya only. As I have read various entries and have noticed that these entries have been arguing the point about Chechnya avoiding the actual question relating to Human Rights abuses in Russia. Chechnya is not Russia!
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