Independence of unrecognised states: who should decide if they are entitled to sovereignty?


Sanjay 13 March, 2008, 20:35	Power and not law decides who wins and who loses, who gets recognition and who does not, and who is remains free and who suffers slavery. Kosovo is not the first example, this phenomenon is as old as life itself, survival of the fittest. So the question is how to attain power. Power comes from a healthy and sound society, where very man and woman is free to attain their full potential. Free and strong society needs a happy family based on sound moral values. When moral values and devotion to family were high on agenda US became to strongest power in the world whereas communism and a barbaric totalitarian system destroyed the institution of family and strong moral and religious values. Attainment and preservation of freedom takes a lot of effort and time, and the rewards are priceless. If abkhazia and ossetia want freedom from tyranny, if russia wants to remain free and sovereign, then the best and the only way is Very active promotion of family values, because the state exists for the society and not the other way around. Now the naysayers might be tempted to jump and cry foul as to how dare I link family values with such "unrelated" things as kosovo and abkhazia, but the wise among us know very well that family is where everything starts. Russia is a great nation and one of the pivotal countries in the future freedom of mankind, something the oligarchs and financiers resent deeply. permalink quote 0 Sanjay
Vijay 13 March, 2008, 20:47	Of course, the UN should decide.and not one/more countries/Blocs/Alliances! But, the standards should be equal and fair to all. No double standards, please! Or else let mayhem reign. permalink quote 0 Vijay
sam 13 March, 2008, 20:48	The answer is simple. The United Nations following a clearly set guildlines with approval of all the parties involved and no one else. permalink quote 0 sam
John 13 March, 2008, 21:35	In the ideal world the UN security council would, taking in to account the welfare of all the people. Unfortunately the world is not ideal and European nations are being used as pawns by a man who believes he talks to godnad god talks to him!!! The Balkans are a flash point and what is happening has the serious potentisl to light the blue touch paper. permalink quote 0 John
Sevodnya_Net 13 March, 2008, 21:59	The UN should decide, in theory, but the problem of Security Council vetoes makes that very problematic in practice. Sanjay is right that it is power that decides in the end, in most cases, usually because the ceding nation, if there is one, will often never agree to give up a part of its territory. The ideal scenario sees the decision being amicably agreed by the relevant parties: in those cases UN intervantion would be an impedance. Every single case in the world is different, and while it would be nice to have strict laws about such matters, in reality it is hard to see how they could be applied equitably in all cases. permalink quote 0 Sevodnya_Net
Norman 14 March, 2008, 00:12	Naturally the United Nations will have to recognise the new nations.Yet these new nations should consider ethnic, financial and political issues before jumping into independence. Since many of these new countries have a Russian link, Russia will have to recognise them, as well as the European Union. There are more issues to independence than ethnicity and religion. permalink quote 0 Norman
oleg 14 March, 2008, 06:10	Can't we all.Just get along??? I think this would be the best solution.Don't you? permalink quote 0 oleg
MihalMihalich 14 March, 2008, 07:08	Dear Ladies & Gentlemen UN is dead. If it can't protect its members it cannot protect anybody. UN member – Serbia just lost part of its territory and UN didn't do a thing about it. UN is no longer a force in this world and soon everyone will disregard UN laws. On corpse of UN a New union about to emerge something called Mediterranean Union maybe it will decide your European future sometime soon and whos land belongs to whom and maybe change your boarders. It will sure make northern Europe cry because the Mediterranean Union will control all the oil in the sea Best regards permalink quote 0 MihalMihalich
rambler 15 March, 2008, 17:38	The criteria should be: are the people seeking independence under physical threat from the state they are part of? If yes, a strengthened UN force should be sent in with powers to protect that community. If this fails then independence should be considered. Chechens for example enjoy wide ranging autonomy. The insurgency there was led by a mix of warlords, traffickers, local oligarchs, nationalists and religious extremists all involved in extreme brutality. Russia was wrong for using excessive force and violating human rights and was repeatedly condemned. Western media sources that condemned Russia showed a great deal of sympathy for these unsavory Chechen groups. Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Karabakh all deserve UN protection and probably independence because Georgia and Azerbaijan annulled their autonomy and decided on a war of conquest and ethnic cleansing. The Kurdish regions of Turkey where 40,000 have died have no autonomy or local parliament of any kind (unlike Kosovo), yet don't receive any sympathy from those who have championed Kosovo's claim to independence permalink quote 0 rambler
Valentin20 16 March, 2008, 19:03	Accordance to the Kosovo issue everyone plays double standart game! each is trying to attract small states to use them as puppet against two power! acpecially USA plays very unclear game being in shitt itself! well! let's waiting for doomsday! Russian or usa nuke will help us!!!!:)) sry for my eng! im russian myself but i dont live in ru!(Tashkent). I think it worth to thing through and through for everyone! i have to say russia pays much attention for everything undertaking nothing! just shouts doing nothing! well i think it worth deploing missiles in Kuba again! i think arm race inevitable! Russia doesnt need to explain anyone just accept it as signal from west! neither needs of Strong Russia! acpesially Usa which is making mess in the world itself! Russia needs to keep a balance now! usa economy already in crisis!neither is able to help it! arm race more profitable for russia! i dont believe anyone start fighting but arm race inevitable! permalink quote 0 Valentin20
Ivan 16 March, 2008, 23:49	The country/republic that wants to be independent must decide. Everybody has a right to be free! permalink quote 0 Ivan
MihalMihalich 17 March, 2008, 16:18	RE rambler “Chechen groups. Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Karabakh all deserve UN protection” Did they ask you too? You know they brought UN troops to Kosovo and …? Under UN flags Albanians cleansed most Kosovo from Serbs… Those regions you just mentioned have seen UN troops actions or lack of action and they know what will happen if anything. For years Russian Peacekeepers keep Abkhazia & South Ossetia safe without bloodshed and only people who died for past years were Russian soldiers. As for Karabakh those in power might want to use UN to cleanse the region, as Georgia wants UN troops for same reason. How sould i put this, this is not UN territory. RE Valentin20 nobody profits from arms race more then United States and at this point when U.S. is in “recession” it's very much needed to sell as much arms as it humanly possible that includes $200+million F22s to loyal customers, who would not spend so much money on a jet if its peace and quiet. Its kind of a “coincident” that as problems start to surface inside US that regions all over the world become unstable and get arms land leases. This is only opinion based on public information Best Regards permalink quote 0 MihalMihalich
Sam 18 March, 2008, 06:22	Dont agree with you Ivan Everyone thinks they can do better alone.Every ethnic group wants to be a country. Think about it, Russia spliting into 21 countries USA into 50 countries Belgium into 2 Canada into 2 UK into 4 spain into 3 etc etc.Think of other large federations like Nigeria,China and India All you will have is chaos and disorder. permalink quote 0 Sam
rambler 18 March, 2008, 22:34	MihalMihalich March 17, 2008, 19:18 RE rambler “Chechen groups. Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Karabakh all deserve UN protection” Did they ask you too? You know they brought UN troops to Kosovo and …? Under UN flags Albanians cleansed most Kosovo from Serbs…" I believe the UN in Kosovo was hijacked by NATO. There is the Minsk Group in Nagorny Karabakh which includes Russia. South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Karabakh have had their autonomy annulled by Georgia and Azerbaijan but NATO has remained silent. These three territories deserve to be independent more than Kosovo permalink quote 0 rambler
Cheburashka 19 March, 2008, 00:23	"Russia spliting into 21 countries" which is exactly what the West would "ideally" like to see (US in particular) because it is much easier to take over a small country (Serbia comer to mind) than a big country such as Russia or China. permalink quote 0 Cheburashka
Sevodnya_Net 19 March, 2008, 09:01	Why would there necessarily be chaos if the countries/federations Sam mentions split into their relative constituent parts? As a matter of fact as far as Russia is concerned the majority of the republics of the RF are fairly well and it would seem happily assimilated into the imperial body politic for a variety of reasons, tho even if by some strange event they did break away it would still leave quite a large 22nd republic called Russia. There is a school of thought that says that gradually the world is moving away from its imperial past to a situation where more ethnicities claim their own independence or autonomy, perhaps in the context of larger supranational bodies. Kosova within the EU might turn out to be a good example of this (or it might not). Or even, who knows, a united Ossetia within a new Economic Union of partner ethnic states across the former Russian Federation and some of the "post-Soviet space" (he said with his big spoon energetically stirring the pot!) Certainly if you look at Europe, a land mass much smaller then the American or Russian Federations, it manages to exist as a continent of independent states without any untoward chaos breaking out. Although maybe that's because of the EU (careful, spoon!!) Having said all that (much of it for the sake of argument), one thing that doesn't suprise me is the number of UDIs we've seen since Kosova: 0 and counting . permalink quote 0 Sevodnya_Net
Sam 19 March, 2008, 19:39	The same type of chaos that occured with the collapse of the USSR and Yugoslavia permalink quote 0 Sam
Norman 19 March, 2008, 22:21	Sam; I agree with you. The idea of Russia as 21 nations and the US as 50 nations is unrealistic. Again, the biggest criteria are political, social and economic stability. The United States has a Constitution that separates state and federal government. The only time states left the union was the Civil War, 1861-1865. The southern states had the cotton, but a worthless money. And the northern states were, and still are, very racist. Last, will history repeat itself- like the small city states of Europe? permalink quote 0 Norman
John Omidi 24 March, 2008, 08:40	- Why is nobody talking about two thirds of non-Albanian population that was expelled from Kosovo in the presence of NATO troops? - More than 1500 Serbians got killed in their presence and nobody was sentenced for those crimes? - 1000 years of Serbian history is almost completely wiped out there. Churches and graveyards that survived Nazi occupation and Ottoman rule were completely destroyed by Albanians and NATO standbyers. - Few days ago Karla Del Ponte admitted that she couldn't even investigate credible information that abducted Serbians were taken apart in a human-organ trafficking scheme, while they were enjoying the "protection" of NATO [link: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=03&dd=23&nav_id=48733]? All of those crimes and victims cry for justice and we do what: push for Kosovo independence to hide these facts under a very thick carpet. Note that almost all NATO countries that bombed Serbia and indirectly participated in those crimes support independence of Kosovo. EU is justifying their crimes by hiding in numbers, and yet they broke their own laws so many times on Serbia. Why is Serbia not enjoying the protection of all fundamental laws that guarantee our safety and values? Why are we closing a blind eye when crimes are committed against Serbians but not against other people? permalink quote 0 John Omidi
Norman 24 March, 2008, 16:34	If the Kosovars-Albanians can break away from Yugoslavia, then the three pro-Russian break-away nations should have a chance at independence. The major difference is that Russia is a far better role model than Albania, and a much better business partner. permalink quote 0 Norman

Sanjay 13 March, 2008, 20:35

Power and not law decides who wins and who loses, who gets recognition and who does not, and who is remains free and who suffers slavery. Kosovo is not the first example, this phenomenon is as old as life itself, survival of the fittest. So the question is how to attain power. Power comes from a healthy and sound society, where very man and woman is free to attain their full potential. Free and strong society needs a happy family based on sound moral values. When moral values and devotion to family were high on agenda US became to strongest power in the world whereas communism and a barbaric totalitarian system destroyed the institution of family and strong moral and religious values. Attainment and preservation of freedom takes a lot of effort and time, and the rewards are priceless. If abkhazia and ossetia want freedom from tyranny, if russia wants to remain free and sovereign, then the best and the only way is Very active promotion of family values, because the state exists for the society and not the other way around. Now the naysayers might be tempted to jump and cry foul as to how dare I link family values with such "unrelated" things as kosovo and abkhazia, but the wise among us know very well that family is where everything starts. Russia is a great nation and one of the pivotal countries in the future freedom of mankind, something the oligarchs and financiers resent deeply.

permalink quote Sanjay

Vijay 13 March, 2008, 20:47

Of course, the UN should decide.and not one/more countries/Blocs/Alliances! But, the standards should be equal and fair to all. No double standards, please! Or else let mayhem reign.

permalink quote Vijay

sam 13 March, 2008, 20:48

The answer is simple. The United Nations following a clearly set guildlines with approval of all the parties involved and no one else.

permalink quote sam

John 13 March, 2008, 21:35

In the ideal world the UN security council would, taking in to account the welfare of all the people. Unfortunately the world is not ideal and European nations are being used as pawns by a man who believes he talks to godnad god talks to him!!! The Balkans are a flash point and what is happening has the serious potentisl to light the blue touch paper.

permalink quote John

Sevodnya_Net 13 March, 2008, 21:59

The UN should decide, in theory, but the problem of Security Council vetoes makes that very problematic in practice. Sanjay is right that it is power that decides in the end, in most cases, usually because the ceding nation, if there is one, will often never agree to give up a part of its territory. The ideal scenario sees the decision being amicably agreed by the relevant parties: in those cases UN intervantion would be an impedance. Every single case in the world is different, and while it would be nice to have strict laws about such matters, in reality it is hard to see how they could be applied equitably in all cases.

permalink quote Sevodnya_Net

Norman 14 March, 2008, 00:12

Naturally the United Nations will have to recognise the new nations.Yet these new nations should consider ethnic, financial and political issues before jumping into independence. Since many of these new countries have a Russian link, Russia will have to recognise them, as well as the European Union. There are more issues to independence than ethnicity and religion.

permalink quote Norman

oleg 14 March, 2008, 06:10

Can't we all.Just get along??? I think this would be the best solution.Don't you?

permalink quote oleg

MihalMihalich 14 March, 2008, 07:08

Dear Ladies & Gentlemen UN is dead. If it can't protect its members it cannot protect anybody. UN member – Serbia just lost part of its territory and UN didn't do a thing about it. UN is no longer a force in this world and soon everyone will disregard UN laws. On corpse of UN a New union about to emerge something called Mediterranean Union maybe it will decide your European future sometime soon and whos land belongs to whom and maybe change your boarders. It will sure make northern Europe cry because the Mediterranean Union will control all the oil in the sea Best regards

permalink quote MihalMihalich

rambler 15 March, 2008, 17:38

The criteria should be: are the people seeking independence under physical threat from the state they are part of? If yes, a strengthened UN force should be sent in with powers to protect that community. If this fails then independence should be considered. Chechens for example enjoy wide ranging autonomy. The insurgency there was led by a mix of warlords, traffickers, local oligarchs, nationalists and religious extremists all involved in extreme brutality. Russia was wrong for using excessive force and violating human rights and was repeatedly condemned. Western media sources that condemned Russia showed a great deal of sympathy for these unsavory Chechen groups. Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Karabakh all deserve UN protection and probably independence because Georgia and Azerbaijan annulled their autonomy and decided on a war of conquest and ethnic cleansing. The Kurdish regions of Turkey where 40,000 have died have no autonomy or local parliament of any kind (unlike Kosovo), yet don't receive any sympathy from those who have championed Kosovo's claim to independence

permalink quote rambler

Valentin20 16 March, 2008, 19:03

Accordance to the Kosovo issue everyone plays double standart game! each is trying to attract small states to use them as puppet against two power! acpecially USA plays very unclear game being in shitt itself! well! let's waiting for doomsday! Russian or usa nuke will help us!!!!:)) sry for my eng! im russian myself but i dont live in ru!(Tashkent). I think it worth to thing through and through for everyone! i have to say russia pays much attention for everything undertaking nothing! just shouts doing nothing! well i think it worth deploing missiles in Kuba again! i think arm race inevitable! Russia doesnt need to explain anyone just accept it as signal from west! neither needs of Strong Russia! acpesially Usa which is making mess in the world itself! Russia needs to keep a balance now! usa economy already in crisis!neither is able to help it! arm race more profitable for russia! i dont believe anyone start fighting but arm race inevitable!

permalink quote Valentin20

Ivan 16 March, 2008, 23:49

The country/republic that wants to be independent must decide. Everybody has a right to be free!

permalink quote Ivan

MihalMihalich 17 March, 2008, 16:18

RE rambler “Chechen groups. Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Karabakh all deserve UN protection” Did they ask you too? You know they brought UN troops to Kosovo and …? Under UN flags Albanians cleansed most Kosovo from Serbs… Those regions you just mentioned have seen UN troops actions or lack of action and they know what will happen if anything. For years Russian Peacekeepers keep Abkhazia & South Ossetia safe without bloodshed and only people who died for past years were Russian soldiers. As for Karabakh those in power might want to use UN to cleanse the region, as Georgia wants UN troops for same reason. How sould i put this, this is not UN territory. RE Valentin20 nobody profits from arms race more then United States and at this point when U.S. is in “recession” it's very much needed to sell as much arms as it humanly possible that includes $200+million F22s to loyal customers, who would not spend so much money on a jet if its peace and quiet. Its kind of a “coincident” that as problems start to surface inside US that regions all over the world become unstable and get arms land leases. This is only opinion based on public information Best Regards

permalink quote MihalMihalich

Sam 18 March, 2008, 06:22

Dont agree with you Ivan Everyone thinks they can do better alone.Every ethnic group wants to be a country. Think about it, Russia spliting into 21 countries USA into 50 countries Belgium into 2 Canada into 2 UK into 4 spain into 3 etc etc.Think of other large federations like Nigeria,China and India All you will have is chaos and disorder.

permalink quote Sam

rambler 18 March, 2008, 22:34

MihalMihalich March 17, 2008, 19:18 RE rambler “Chechen groups. Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Karabakh all deserve UN protection” Did they ask you too? You know they brought UN troops to Kosovo and …? Under UN flags Albanians cleansed most Kosovo from Serbs…" I believe the UN in Kosovo was hijacked by NATO. There is the Minsk Group in Nagorny Karabakh which includes Russia. South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Karabakh have had their autonomy annulled by Georgia and Azerbaijan but NATO has remained silent. These three territories deserve to be independent more than Kosovo

permalink quote rambler

Cheburashka 19 March, 2008, 00:23

"Russia spliting into 21 countries" which is exactly what the West would "ideally" like to see (US in particular) because it is much easier to take over a small country (Serbia comer to mind) than a big country such as Russia or China.

permalink quote Cheburashka

Sevodnya_Net 19 March, 2008, 09:01

Why would there necessarily be chaos if the countries/federations Sam mentions split into their relative constituent parts? As a matter of fact as far as Russia is concerned the majority of the republics of the RF are fairly well and it would seem happily assimilated into the imperial body politic for a variety of reasons, tho even if by some strange event they did break away it would still leave quite a large 22nd republic called Russia. There is a school of thought that says that gradually the world is moving away from its imperial past to a situation where more ethnicities claim their own independence or autonomy, perhaps in the context of larger supranational bodies. Kosova within the EU might turn out to be a good example of this (or it might not). Or even, who knows, a united Ossetia within a new Economic Union of partner ethnic states across the former Russian Federation and some of the "post-Soviet space" (he said with his big spoon energetically stirring the pot!) Certainly if you look at Europe, a land mass much smaller then the American or Russian Federations, it manages to exist as a continent of independent states without any untoward chaos breaking out. Although maybe that's because of the EU (careful, spoon!!) Having said all that (much of it for the sake of argument), one thing that doesn't suprise me is the number of UDIs we've seen since Kosova: 0 and counting .

permalink quote Sevodnya_Net

Sam 19 March, 2008, 19:39

The same type of chaos that occured with the collapse of the USSR and Yugoslavia

permalink quote Sam

Norman 19 March, 2008, 22:21

Sam; I agree with you. The idea of Russia as 21 nations and the US as 50 nations is unrealistic. Again, the biggest criteria are political, social and economic stability. The United States has a Constitution that separates state and federal government. The only time states left the union was the Civil War, 1861-1865. The southern states had the cotton, but a worthless money. And the northern states were, and still are, very racist. Last, will history repeat itself- like the small city states of Europe?

permalink quote Norman

John Omidi 24 March, 2008, 08:40

- Why is nobody talking about two thirds of non-Albanian population that was expelled from Kosovo in the presence of NATO troops? - More than 1500 Serbians got killed in their presence and nobody was sentenced for those crimes? - 1000 years of Serbian history is almost completely wiped out there. Churches and graveyards that survived Nazi occupation and Ottoman rule were completely destroyed by Albanians and NATO standbyers. - Few days ago Karla Del Ponte admitted that she couldn't even investigate credible information that abducted Serbians were taken apart in a human-organ trafficking scheme, while they were enjoying the "protection" of NATO [link: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=03&dd=23&nav_id=48733]? All of those crimes and victims cry for justice and we do what: push for Kosovo independence to hide these facts under a very thick carpet. Note that almost all NATO countries that bombed Serbia and indirectly participated in those crimes support independence of Kosovo. EU is justifying their crimes by hiding in numbers, and yet they broke their own laws so many times on Serbia. Why is Serbia not enjoying the protection of all fundamental laws that guarantee our safety and values? Why are we closing a blind eye when crimes are committed against Serbians but not against other people?

permalink quote John Omidi

Norman 24 March, 2008, 16:34

If the Kosovars-Albanians can break away from Yugoslavia, then the three pro-Russian break-away nations should have a chance at independence. The major difference is that Russia is a far better role model than Albania, and a much better business partner.

permalink quote Norman

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