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Who's really to blame for Tallinn's War Memorial riots?
Norman 14 January, 2008, 22:01 I believe that taking down the World War Two memorial was an insensitive act, given the sacrifice of the Soviet/ Russian army ( and most of the other column bloggers know I am no admirer of the old USSR). Still, history is history! Let's give credit where credit is due. The Soviet Army did a great job during WW2, communist or not.
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Sevodnya_Net 14 January, 2008, 23:47 As I said before somewhere, although there are issues, to say the least, with Soviet actions in Estonia during and after the war, the removing of war memorials is a very insensitive act and bound to exacerbate tensions. As Norman says, great sacrifices were made by the Soviet army in the war, and every person lost has relatives who will be deeply offended.
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Al2 15 January, 2008, 00:35 I feel differently about this than some people. First off the Red Army soldiers deserve to be honored, they were not fighting for communism or for Stalin. They were fighting for their freedom and their land. As they saw it. What happened after they had moved on to fight the next battle is another subject. Point being we must never forget our soldiers. I saw that statue in the square, it seemed terribly out of place there in my eyes, slowly being eroded away by acids from car exhaust and subject to the carelessness and foolery of the local youths who had no respect for it. In a place where people only hurried by never giving it a glance. The pictures I have seen of it now says to me it is in a better enviornment, cleaner with flowers and trees. Where people can take the time to actually consider it and think about it. It's not a beautiful thing in an ugly place any more. As for who's at fault is debatable but the leaders of the Russian community there and the Estonian politicos are both at fault.
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MihalMihalich 15 January, 2008, 03:00 Dear Ladies & Gentlemen Estonia is a fascist country, after they were forced to REMOVE Woffen SS monument they removed Soviet one. They have enough fascist electorate to put fascist in the office and to let this happened. See… nobody disputes really that digging raves is deed of weak, let alone WW2 Heroes. Frankly anyone will spit in your face, knowing that there will be little or no consequences, just to see how it feels. POINT. The point is not about monument but about kid that was KILLED during protest. He was Russian kid, and nobody did $#@T about his death. Nobody was found guilty no nothing and soon forgotten. It unthinkable but it still happened. Estonia is a really small country with 30% population Russians, and they didn’t do much to prevent removal, and after it happened protests were not massive enough to keep their fascist ears ringing. The Politics in Europe had good chance to shout at least something/anything that they could agree on, but they did close to nothing, which only says about lack of character. As for Russians, it seems their Ministry of Foreign Affairs was not enough protein in their diet. I thought their comments were more funny than aggressive. I hope Russia’s new President will replace the minister. Outcome of this Estonian farce had opposite reaction, those who supported them will probably still support them, but Russian community has become for united. Best Regards
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Marzipan6 15 January, 2008, 09:20 I have been to Estonia on three occasions since 1992, most recently six months ago for a period of two weeks. I have seen the Bronze Soldier in its old location, I have seen that location since the monument
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Anti-War 15 January, 2008, 16:48 Xenophobia and Racial hatred in all forms are dangerous. And that's the precise reason for these riots-unreasonable HATRED! The Estonians believe the Soviets occupied them (not understanding that they themselves were part of the same SOVIETS)and present day Russian symbols and/or some actions that will hurt them are being instigated. They probabaly forget that these soldiers' whose remains lie underneath are the same those who spilled BLOOD for the fatherland, which included the anscestors of the Rioters today!
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Marzipan6 15 January, 2008, 19:15 I wonder, Anti-War, why do you imply that Estonians are xenophobic and have racial hatred? Have you been to Estonia? Have you spoken at length to both Russians and Estonians there? Do you perhaps know the Estonian language, and are closely acquainted with Estonia’s several thousand years of recorded history? Are you aware of what an entirely cosmopolitan place Estonia is, how many thousands upon thousands of foreigners, including vast numbers of Russians, constantly visit there because they enjoy it so much? Or are you merely relying on official Russia’s representation of matters? I do meet happen to meet all the qualifications mentioned above, and these tell me that what you wrote really is way off the mark. Throughout Estonia’s long, long recorded history, there is not even one account that anyone can find of a single pogrom initiated by Estonians against anyone. Even though there is ample record of occupation and oppression of Estonians by almost all their neighbours at one time or another throughout history, there is no record of racial hatred, and no living evidence of it today. On the contrary, there is much intermarriage, and much entirely harmonious work and neighbourhood relations. But there is also the constant aggravation of Moscow’s politics at the expense of Estonia and the Baltics, which is not designed to actually advance those countries. What there also is, is a very real concern by Estonians that they remain free and sovereign, because history teaches them that when they don’t have freedom, their culture and national identity begins dying. And as there are only about a million of them, this is a genuine worry for them – strangely enough, they don’t want to die as a nation. And please, please, don’t have the effrontery to tell Estonians that they “don’t understand” their own Soviet-era history. They understand it perfectly, better than you do by far, because they were there. They know that their incorporation into the Soviet Union was utterly and totally against their own will, and contrary to even the merest vestige of Estonian constitutional norms and law. They know that they remained part of the Soviet entity for fifty years only because the force of Soviet arms prevented any alternative, and that the first chance they got in a weakened Soviet union, even before the collapse of the Union itself, they broke free. They know exactly what the Red Army, some of whose members lay buried in that Tallinn park, did and did not do. They are grateful for the Red Army’s contribution of Nazi Germany. And deplore the same Red Army’s enslavement of themselves for a further fifty years. And by the way, you may be Anti-War by nick-name, but Estonians are anti-war by fact. They have had far, far too much incredibly painful experience of what others’ wars have always done to them.
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Cheburashka 16 January, 2008, 03:35 well, pretty much any action can be advertised in either a positive or negative way. the blame for the riots i would put 1) on estonian govt for presenting their intent in a negative way to the public and 2) on those responcible for giving orders to the police to disban protesters. if estonia is so "democratic" why not let people have their say and then talk to them when the situation settles down? make them at least "think" that the govt cares for the wellbeing and condition of the statue, and that respect for the dead soldiers is NOT the issue. if i was estonian govt, i would present the benefits of moving the memorial much like Marzipan just did, in a positive and rational way. to be honest i was against the move, and while im not ENTIRELY convinced, you got me to vie this in a more positive way. what did the estonian govt do? they pretty much said "we dont want it to be here, its in our way, oh and by the way. we'll also take one of the medals off the soldier." of course this is going to make people angry! or maybe they did it such way on purpose to show to the world "how unruly those barbarian russkis are, no wonder they did all those "atrocities" to us." ********************* re: "atrocities" it is amaising how to see how much people like to point at russia and blame it for all the hardships and "atrocities" of the soviet union! (a hotkey would be nice, yes) Marzipan. Russia is NOT SU. the people in charge of the govt for MOST of SU's existence were NOT RUSSIAN! 1) "Grandpa Lenin" - mix of Russian, Kalmyk, Jewish, German, and Swedish, and possibly others' according to biographer Dmitri Volkogonov. [wikipedia] - came back to russia with the help of germany to make unrest and stop russian involvement in ww1! 2) STALIN - a GEORGIAN who inflicted more suffering onto russia than russians ever did on georgia (otherwise they would simply be extict as species) - it is Russia that has more reasons to open a "museum of Georgian occupation" than the other way around 3) Khruschev - ok, HE as it turnes out was only PRETENDING to be ukranean, but says he was really russian?!. very confusing. Gave away Crimea from Russia to Ukraine - then again, he had only 2 years! of formal education as a child! maybe that explains it - ok, so HUNGARY was his fault, or maybe Stalin's system and working for him for so long as well as the 'education' also played a role. 4) Brezhnev - it was THIS guy that was the ukranian 5) Andropov & Chernenko - each died in just over a year at the helm. and look, its 1985! we have Glasnost' & Perestroika! ok so, a german jew, a georgian, the illiterate ukranian-wannabe, the ukranian and 2 dead guys. now russia takes ALL the heat while according to the WEST ukraine, georgia, germany and israel are 'good' i am not saying they are bad, but is it fair for russia and the russians to take all the heat when most people at the helm of the SOVIET UNION were not russian?
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Sanjay 16 January, 2008, 03:49 The baltics are a very difficult problem for Russia. First and foremost, estonia and others are not fascists or warmongers. They do have ligitimate greivances against Soviets and they see Russia as the successor state to SU. After nordic rule, primarily sweidish rule for 6 centuries, russians dominated the region for last 3 centuries. Being the most recent occupiers, the estonians will continue to blame russia for everything ill for quite sometime. The delimna for Russia is that anglo-americans will use history and the prevailing attitudes to sow division and discord between europe and Russia and keep both of them weak and divided. Anglo-americans will use their spinmasters to exacerbate anti-russian hysteria through media, TV, newspapaers, movies, internet to blame Russians for everything and portray themselves as saviors and liberators. At this hour, Russians must never speak anything which even remotely looks threatening to the baltic republics. On the other hand the best thing for Russian ethnic community in the baltics is to migrate to Russia. Whatever little, it will still solve some demographic issues in Russia. Russians have no lack of space. They just have to breed, pursue good moral orthodox values and make russia strong and prosperous. I wonder why the ethnic russians do not migrate from the baltics back to Russia. Ukraine and belarus are totally different though. Ukraine, belarus and Russia have common ancestry, kinship, and a common keivan Rus history. Kazakhstan, the modern day kipchaks, too have a common past of over 7 seven centuries with Russia. Russia should focus on Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan for closer union.
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George. D 16 January, 2008, 04:03 Russia should not over dramatize this, by doing so you empower your enemies, Russia has to look to it's self, keep strengthening it's economy keep building up its military might, raising Russians to be more patriotic.
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Dogbreath 16 January, 2008, 07:46 Sanjay asks: "I wonder why the ethnic russians do not migrate from the baltics back to Russia." 1. Those countries are their home - most of them have never lived anywhere else. 2. Living standards, job opportunities etc. are better than in Russia, especially since they're now in the EU. 3. Most of these people don't feel at home in Russia, it's a foreign country for them. In fact, many of them aren't really Russian ethnically - they're Ukrainian, Georgian, Uzbek or whatever.
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Marzipan6 16 January, 2008, 10:07 The several contributors since my previous post make some good points, and ask some good questions. I’ll attempt to comment on them as best I can, and hope that my post doesn’t become too long. Whereas there are cultural differences between the two peoples which any Estonian and Russian would be aware of, there truly is no racial animosity on either part. Estonians have, shall we loosely call it a Protestant work ethic. Culturally they fit in much more readily with the Scandinavian way of doing things than with the Russian way. But at the same time, because of long historical and cultural contact with Russia and Russians, many aspects of “Russianness” have become familiar and close to them, and they would probably miss it if it was suddenly all gone. Economically they would certainly miss the Russian population if it just vanished – with a booming economy, Estonia needs people. The problem is, that in Soviet times, Moscow killed and transported a very large percentage of the Estonian population – several hundred thousand of them – and replaced them with foreigners who had absolutely no interest whatsoever of integrating with Estonia. I think Estonia is the only European country whose native population was still less in 1991 than it had been in 1939. The newcomers were, for the most part, uneducated Russian labourers. Many of them truly didn’t even know where they were, and those who did thought and acted as if Estonia was just a part of Russia – and I say “Russia” deliberately, and not “Soviet Union”. Their numbers threatened to turn Estonians into a minority in their own land, and whether actively or passively, they set about applying Soviet Moscow’s policy of russifying Estonia. Estonia’s national identity had already been snuffed out, and now the Estonian language and culture were in very real danger. Given that first the military invaders and then the social invaders came from Russia, were mostly Russians and carried out policies decreed from Russia, you will understand why in the Estonian consciousness “Soviet” is indelibly associated with “Russia”, not even with Ukraine nor with other Soviet peoples. And Russia is the only post-Soviet land that continues a hostile policy against Estonia. After freedom in 1991, Estonia was left with a real challenge of how to respond to the fact that about 40 per cent of their population comprised of utterly unassimilated foreigners who did not know the language of the land because they had never been interested to learn it (and not uncommonly, called it a “dog’s language”). They frankly scorned many aspects of Estonian culture, still maintained an overbearing, superior and colonial attitude towards the country, knew nothing of the history of the land, but who continued to embrace the worst aspects of the Soviet spin on “history” which pictured them as the saviours of Estonia rather than the captors, terrorizers and impoverishers of it. If all these people were given automatic Estonian citizenship as Moscow demanded, that would be the end of the Estonian nation – Estonian citizenship would have instantly become meaningless, and the place would simply have become an undifferentiated province of Russia, which is what Soviet rule had tried to make it anyway. What Estonia did was the following: (1) Apart from the active military and criminals, it required no one to leave the country. Approximately 200,000 did leave, but that was their own decision, not Estonia’s. (2) Everyone who remained was able to enjoy exactly all the same social benefits as any citizen did. (3) All employment was available to them except positions involving public safety where a knowledge of the Estonian language was required. If they had the language, they could also have the job. (4) Voting in national elections was not available to them, because they would have been used by Moscow to promote Moscow’s political aims in the country, and there were so many of them that the threat could not be taken lightly. But voting in local elections has always been open to them. (5) Citizenship by naturalization was and continues to be open to them. This involves demonstrating knowledge of the Constitution, the Citizenship Act, and a basic knowledge of the Estonian language. The government even pays for their language study course. The reason for the naturalization requirements is, that new citizens are expected to actually know the country of which they want to be citizens, and have sufficient language skills to where they could fit in anywhere in the country, and not form isolated Russian-speaking ghettoes. (6) Any who do not wish to take out Estonian citizenship are free to take out the citizenship of any other country that wishes to grant it, or to remain without citizenship and continue living in the country on the basis that I already described. Children born in Estonia since 1991 to non-citizen residents generally have Estonian citizenship automatically. (7) Gradually all schools in Estonia have come to require Estonian to be the language of tuition in certain subjects. But any other national school can operate freely and teach other subjects in whatever language they choose, including Russian. To date, nearly 147,000 people have acquired citizenship. Only 112,000 residents remain with undetermined citizenship, representing just 8.3% of the population. 83.8% of the population are Estonian citizens, and 7.9% are the citizens of some other country (mostly Russia). Ethnic Russians continue to live in Estonia even though most of them are still the original immigrants simply because they like it there. They have a more peaceful and secure life there, and certainly a more prosperous life, than if they returned to Russia. And while all the social wounds of the Soviet era have by no means been healed yet, the healing process is well on the way, though this continues to be hindered, and not helped, by Moscow. Because Estonia has historically been so traumatized by Soviet policies carried out mostly by Russian authorities and Russian people, and because Russia itself continues to deny the reality of Soviet actions in Estonia and denies that there even was a Soviet occupation, Estonians continue to be fairly apprehensive of danger from the east. This is exacerbated by the fact that Moscow has not sought a reconciliation and continues a very harsh, aggressive and punitive line against Estonia diplomatically and economically. Because of this, the government response to the Bronze Soldier crisis was not as measured or as casual as it might have otherwise been. Furthermore, it could hardly stand back and do nothing while shops were being looted by rampaging drunken mobs. Russia's response to the whole matter was simply startling. I doubt that there is a country on earth that has ever gone into such vehement national paroxysm because a second country moved a monument of yet a third (and no longer existing) country a couple of kilometres down the road. I believe the solution of the problem is very simple: if Russia acknowledges the reality of Soviet crimes against Estonia and acknowledges the problems which Soviet occupation brought to the land, seeks reconciliation and actively works in partnership with Estonia to solve the legacies of those problems, the tensions between the two countries would disappear amazingly quickly. However, Russia’s own Soviet-era complexes make it impossible for it to do so. And it seems it suits Moscow for domestic reasons to represent itself as being surrounded by enemies, so it deliberately keeps relations bad with so many of its neighbours, the Baltics included. And by the way, this is worth thinking about: none of the other former Soviet nationalities that were “stranded” in Estonia post-1991 have any problems with or complaints against the Estonian government or Estonian society. Only Russians do. And even then, by no means all Russians, just those who are influenced by Moscow’s viewpoints. The Estonian government alleges that the couple of nights of riots last April were organised and provoked from Russia. The participants, for the most part, were drunken and looting Russian youths. Whereas most Russians in Estonia would probably have preferred not to have Bronze Soldier monument relocated, most are also thoroughly ashamed at the behaviour of the rioters.
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Sam 19 January, 2008, 14:44 Some people keep saying that the statue was in a bad place.So is the Cenotaph in london.Right on the centre of busy road but you dont see us moving it out of respect for our fallen heros.We bend to respect them.Once a year we close the road and pay our respects to them. The truth is that Baltic states especially Estonia own their existance to Russia.Go check out their history. During the WW2 they allied with Nazi germany and infact started killing their minorities before germany troops got to them.Their treatment of their minorities right now shows that things never changed. Marzipan6 states that moscow deported or killed them and replaced them with other nationalities.Its easy to be selective to try to make a point.The fact is, large numbers of USSR citizens were treated that way by Stalin who just happens to be Georgian, including Russians.Those that allied themselves with the Nazis were given special treatment and many Ukrainians and tartars suffered the same faith.The whole Tartar nation was uprooted to siberia. As for "repopulated estonia" I am sure it was not planned. If Texas breaks away from the USA, I wonder how Much of the population would in fact be texan? All in all,The Russians that died and were buried there,were fighting Nazi Germans and the Estonians that were allied to them( maybe thats what makes them mad ) They were fighting alone side us from the east.If we got there and not Russians we too would have killed the Estonian SS.These boys and girls died Sorting out Nazis and not during USSR occupation of the baltic States so how come they are being linked to that? No flowers planted at the site can make up for such disrespect. I hear they are planning on giving Estonian SS pention now. Lets hope they dont pardon the butch of Riga too. Few months ago Estonia asked for an estonian jew to be extradited from Isreal on charge of killing Nazi collaborators during WW2.Now that was funny.I wonder what Isreal told them?
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Sam 19 January, 2008, 15:35 I would like to make a correction to my last post.It was Lithuanian not Estonian government that requested israel to extradite the Jewish partisan.However all three baltic States are behaving in a pro Nazi nature.During my search to confirm my facts, I found out that Nazi Vets from the three Baltic states are not only gvern state war pensions but bigger tax breaks.
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Marzipan6 20 January, 2008, 00:59 Sam, I appreciate your commitment to what you believe is right. But that commitment is based on a very, very poor understanding of Estonian and Baltic history. May I please point out some of your errors? You can check any relevant history authority to see whether what I write is correct. You write, “The truth is that the Baltic states especially Estonia owe their existence to Russia. Go check out their history.” I know their history very, very well, Sam, and I and my family have even lived part of it. Estonia does not owe its existence to Russia. In 1918-20 when Estonia declared its independence, the very first thing it had to fight a desperate War of Liberation, completely out-gunned, out-numbered and unprepared, against both Russia and the German Wehrmacht. Both these powers tried to crush it out of existence. By a miracle it won the war, and in the Tartu Peace Conference of 1920, the Soviet Union “freely and for all time” rescinded all claims against Estonia and recognised its sovereign independence. “All time” lasted four years until 1924, when Moscow secretly sent troops across the border to foment a coup in Tallinn and install a Communist government. Their effort failed spectacularly, though not without bloodshed. Thereafter “all time” lasted until 1939 when, without any provocation, Soviet Russia occupied Estonia arrested its government, illegally installed its own regime, illegally annexed and incorporated the country into the Soviet Union, and immediately began a blood-bath against its civilian population. I have stood in the courtyard of Kuresaare Castle on the Estonian island of Saaremaa which in 1941 was piled with bodies of civilians murdered by the Red Army. Over 15,000 other civilians, aged from a few weeks to over 90 years, were crammed onto cattle wagons at stations and sidings for several days in the sweltering June sunshine without food and water, to thereafter commence about a week-long journey to Siberian slavery, from which few returned. Many did not even survive the rail journey. In visits to Estonia I have stood at the stations and sidings where the loaded trains first waited, and spoken with old people who remember the groans and the cries of the prisoners inside, and the wails of their mourning loved ones outside. Nazi Germans drove out the Red Army and stayed till 1944. And even though they had no more intention than did the Soviets of ever restoring Estonian sovereignty and Estonians had no love for them, at least they did not practice the mass murder and ethnic cleansing that the Soviets did. When the Red Army returned in 1944, indiscriminate mass killings and deportations immediately resumed, and eventually claimed over 100,000 Estonians – more than 10 per cent of the entire population. And of course, for the next 50 years the Soviets did all they could to counter Estonia’s national self-consciousness, and to prevent it ever regaining its freedom again. So much for your truly strange idea that Estonia owes its existence to Russia. Sam, next you try to excuse for what Soviet Moscow did to Estonia by pointing out what Soviet Moscow did to Russians and to others. What Moscow did to its own people was its own business. But who invited or allowed it to illegally crash over international borders and do the same to its neighbours, Estonians included? You then excuse the attempted cultural destruction of Estonia through overflooding it with foreigners by saying you were “sure it was not planned”. Sam, do you really believe that anything of that scale could happen in the Soviet Union that was not planned? Do you really imagine that people went to a local friendly travel agent, were persuaded by the glitzy ads and soft-sell, bought a ticket and happily went on their way to their dream trip to Estonia?? It was so planned that maps, documents and deportation plans in regard to the Baltics were in circulation in Russia in 1939, even before the first Soviet occupation of 1941, while even Moscow recognised Estonia as a sovereign nation. It was so planned that after the Red Army’s return in 1944, the border city of Narva, that had been razed to the ground by Soviet revenge bombing which had no military objective, was set aside exclusively as an area of Russian re-settlement to which Estonians were forbidden to return, even those who used to live there. This was a gross ethnic cleansing, to move the Russia’s demographic borders westward, additionally to the mass migration of other Russians into the heart of Estonia. Next, Sam, you write about Estonia being allied to Nazi Germany. Estonia was never, never allied to Nazi Germany. Finland was, but Estonia wasn’t. Prior to the war, Estonia followed a policy of strict neutrality. In 1940 when Russia invaded, the Estonian government was arrested and imprisoned and Estonia’s sovereignty was destroyed. Its occupation by the Soviet’s was not a “Russian alliance” any more than its subsequent occupation by Germany was a “German alliance”. It was an occupation, Sam – look up the meaning of the word some time. The very first time that Estonia was able to enter into any alliance whatsoever after 1939 was in 1991, when it regained its sovereignty. Towards the end of the period of German occupation when Germany was already in retreat and the Red Army was on its way back to Estonia to resume its atrocities of 1941 against the civilian population, many Estonians fought in German uniform against the returning Soviets, so horrified were they of the Soviets' return. Moscow had already disbanded the Estonian army in 1941 during its first occupation, so there was no national army thereafter for Estonians to fight in. Some were conscripted into the German Army, while others joined voluntarily, to try to protect their homes and loved ones from approaching Soviets. The fact that upon re-occupation of the country, Moscow immediately resumed its killings, deportations and terror that had been interrupted in 1941, and continued its occupation for almost another 50 years amply justifies Estonians’ wish to fight against their return by whatever means was available. In actual fact, you fill find it very hard to come up with even one Estonian fascist or Nazi, whether today or historically. All totalitarian regimes which savaged Estonia, whether of the Nazi or Communist variety, are odious to Estonians. There never was an Estonian Nazi party, much less an Estonian Nazi government. And apart from about two and a half misfits whom I could think of, none of whom occupy any position of prominence in society, there are no Estonian Nazis or fascists today. You also write about alleged anti-semitism in Estonia. The first written record of Estonia in history is approximately 2000 years ago. In all this time, you will not find record of even one anti-Jewish pogrom instigated or conducted by Estonians. Not many countries can say that. In the inter-war period, Estonia was the first European country to give cultural autonomy to Jews, and Israel and pre-Israel Jewish authorities have recognized and honoured Estonia for this. When German forces were approaching in 1941, many Jews escaped to the Soviet Union, where most were killed by the Soviets. Those who remained were killed by Germans. During the German occupation, some few Estonians served as camp border guards, and a few others, to the lasting shame of Estonia, were complicit in German war crimes. The overwhelming majority were front-line soldiers facing the returning Soviet juggernaut. After the war, a new Jewish population came to Estonia from Russia, and Estonia has good relations with them. It also has excellent relations with the state of Israel, and recently the first Jewish synagogue built since World War II was dedicated in Tallinn, in the presence of the Estonian President and high government officials from Israel. It was built to replace one destroyed in the war by Soviet bombing. Moscow apparently saw no need to replace it throughout the fifty subsequent years of its control.
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Marzipan6 20 January, 2008, 05:07 A correction to my previous post. In paragraph 2, “Wehrmacht” should be replaced by “Landeswehr.”.
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sam 20 January, 2008, 09:23 Again its easy to be selective to make your point.Starting you history from 1918.why not go back? If not for Russia,Estonia would still be in sweden. On Treatment of All USSR people.You wrote-What Moscow did to its own people was its own business. May I point Out that Russia is not the USSR and was a state in the USSR like Georgia,Ukraine Armenia and Estonia.Picking the one you like and side tracking the ones you dont. does make you look very biased. The Baltic states were sympartetic to Nazi Germany you cannt rewrite history here.So were the western part of Ukraine. Are You denying that Estonian SS exited? and I do not mean small insignificant groups of British SS.I mean large companies.At least we Hung our own and not given them pensions. Right Lol Jews escaping Nazis were killed by the Soviets.Last I heard many came back as members of the red army. you wrote " You then excuse the attempted cultural destruction of Estonia through overflooding it with foreigners by saying you were “sure it was not planned”. Sam, do you really believe that anything of that scale could happen in the Soviet Union that was not planned" Now in this I find a hit of racism.Sorry but being British for years we had millions of "foreigners" immigrate to our little isle.People of all nations and colours.Walk down any street in London,and you will see a mix of culture and colours.Check out our surnames and you will find how mixed we are.Those "foreiners" did not erod our culture,they enriched it.Yes our best british dish is chicken tikka masala and we are proud of it.At no time are we treating our citizens from indian or estonian origin differently.UK has many faults but this is not one.Estonia has a lot to learn about treatment of its minorities.
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Sevodnya_Net 20 January, 2008, 12:07 Sam, Fair play to you. Another honourable British tradition is to keep getting up off the canvas after another bludgeoning, in this case by historical fact. If I was the referee tho I think I'd step in and save you from another knockdown. Luckily I'm not, tho. (Double smiley!)
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sam 20 January, 2008, 21:29 Sevodnya_Net are you telling me that I am not correct that estonia did not exist before the Russian Empire took that part of sweden in 1710 and espablished the the duchy of estonia in 1721 by the treaty of Nystad? Is that not the origin of Estonia? Is there a link you can give me that shows that The Red army was killing estonian jews? From what I know several of them won medals in the Red army. Or is it that you do not agree with me that immigrants have rights and when they become citizens that have equal rights like the rest of us. especial in estonia where they were born and are ethnic Russias Ukrainians etc and not really Russians. Glade you not a referee,as nothing is worse then a biased one(triple Smiley) [please don't get personal - RT]
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Marzipan6 21 January, 2008, 09:08 Sam asks why I started my overview of Estonian history from 1918. I would have thought the reason was self-evident: Sam had informed us that Estonia owes its existence to Russia, and I pointed out how very wrong that claim was. Estonian declared its independence in 1918, and Russia immediately attacked it with the purpose of destroying its sovereignty. Thereafter it tried repeatedly to do the same, and even temporarily achieved its aim for a period of about 50 years after 1939. But if Sam wants to start earlier, let
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