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Stalin will return to Moscow streets on Victory Day

March 05, 2010 11:46

A war of words over the name of Joseph Stalin, who died 57 years ago, is being fought in Moscow, the city where he is buried. The country he led to victory in World War II is still divided over Stalin's place in history.

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Comments (19) Sort by: Highest rating Oldest first Newest first

Goran 28.04.2010 03:12

Oh I will mind Germany and every other nation that whitewashes its own history of as much terror and death and destruction they have caused to others at the same time as laying blame of the actions of one man and those under his authority solely on that of one nation as much as possible. It doesn't make anyone right, but it sure as hell drops their morale ground right about at the same level. There are VERY few examples indeed of a nation prosecuting one of its own on its own for crimes committed against another state. Oh, you would like that, would you not? To remove the background. To turn it into black and white. To meld Russia with the USSR no matter what. Well, guess what? Stalin wasn't a Russian. Stalin took control of the entire USSR. Stalin signed off on every order of rape, pillage, torture, and mass murder. Everyone else followed his orders. The hierarchy of the Ukrainian Socialist Republic followed his orders to the letter. Those people were Ukrainians. You would love to pretend it was only "Soviet Russians" that were to blame, and Stalin just happened to be ethnically Georgian and nothing else, but even the Russian Soviet endured its share of crimes committed against it by Stalin. Or did you happen to forget Russian suffered untold amounts under Stalin as well? No, I suppose that wouldn't fit in your rhetoric and demonising of Russia. Tito was the President of Yugoslavia from post-WW2 to 1980, at his death. He committed numerous massacres, and prejudiced heavily against Serbs. He was half-Croat, and half-Slovene. He was born in what was then a part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Serbia is the recognised successor state to Yugoslavia. No one has attempted to take him to trial after his death. No one. And he's guilty of many a crime. Who prosecutes him? Serbia? Croatia? Slovenia? Austria? No one criticises Serbia for not doing so. No one claims he pushed forward some Serbian imperialist agenda. No, this is Russophobia and hatred at its best.

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Marzipan6 12.04.2010 08:56

It makes no difference why Stalin murdered, whether for racial reasons or for ethnic reasons, or for any other reason one might imagine. The fact is, that he murdered – and murdered and murdered, until he became one of the greatest mass murders known to human kind, whose name and whose deeds will forever shame the pages of human history. While not a Russian himself, he did this in the name of the Soviet Russian imperialism, as well as in the name of his own sick paranoia. And he did not commit his multiple millions of murders, and ever greater multiple millions of enslavements, by himself. He had untold thousands of accomplices, and so did his successors who continued in his oppressive ways and whose only claim to fame is that they did not murder, enslave or terrorize quite so many as their mentor. It is to Russia’s profound shame that it has lifted not one finger even to investigate, much less prosecute and sentence, even one single individual who committed crimes against humanity in the name of the Soviet state. Never mind what Germany or any other nation did nor did not do – their actions or lack of it do not even begin to relieve Russia of its comprehensive moral bankruptcy in regard to its handling of its Soviet legacy.

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Goran 11.04.2010 17:16

It would seem the difference is that Stalin killed on ideological differences, vs ethnic, and that the USSR won, whereas Germany had lost. Stalin did not explicitly aim to completely wipe out any particular ethnic group, but rather killed anyone who dared oppose him and/or communism. That even post-Stalin Soviet leadership criticised Stalin, and reversed the cult following of Stalin should make it clear that the USSR and later on, Russian criticisms of Stalin, that his footsteps are being avoided, rather than followed. Obama, nor did any US President, did not offer any apologies for the treaties, for the mass murder of buffalo to starve midwestern natives into submission. Obama has not acknowledged the wrongs committed. The document was signed as part of a defence spending bill. No press release was issued on the bill. Apologies have been made to African Americans, to Japanese Americans with press releases. No one told any Native leaders of it. It was not directed at any. That isn't exactly an apology, much less any attempts at corrective measures. It is one very small step in the right direction. In Vietnam, bounties were given for VC brought dead. An American cavalry officer even commented that a pregnant woman counted as two dead; one VC and one cadet. Deliberate bombing of civilian casualties. List goes on, including the previous examples I have mentioned already. As far as I am concerned, Germany apologised for the Holocaust because it had no choice to. It has not apologised otherwise for other crimes of aggression committed. It has whitewashed its own history of colonialism. It only apologised in 2004 for specific acts of genocide Germany committed because 2004 was the 100th anniversary of them and enough media jumped onboard to make it an issue. The apology was met with widespread criticism of what was deemed to be caving in. It always apologies for things it cannot effectively sweep under the carpet, and nothing more.

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Marzipan6 10.04.2010 12:16

Goran wondered what civilized norms Russia lacks that the rest of the world has. Not all the rest of the world holds civilized norms by any means. But some countries like Germany which, during its dark Nazi period committed crimes on a par with Stalin’s Soviet Union, has subsequently shown behaviour that is very un-Russian. It declared the Nazi regime to be criminal, it joined in the investigation, arrest, trial and punishment of Nazi criminals, it acknowledged and apologised to neighbouring countries whom Germans had oppressed under the Nazi flag, has held solemn ceremonies of reconciliation with them, and has provided monetary compensation for those crimes not, I imagine, because the victims sought it but because Germany wanted to do it to cleanse itself. Oh, and it does not have pictures of Hitler on Berlin streets, and does not carve quotations from Hitler onto its railway stations. It also teaches the truth to its children about its Nazi history, and does not praise Hitler for being “an effective manager”. Japan , also guilty of gross wartime crimes against humanity has also shown civilized norms of behaviour which one still looks for in Russia. While not technically apologising for its crimes and while still being reticent to teach all the facts of its war-time history to its children, its national leaders, from the Emperor on down, have personally expressed regret many times to victimised countries, and have participated in many profoundly sincere ceremonies of reconciliation with them. American crimes do not compare in scope with the above, but it has some to its name, and it has dealt with some of these. For instance, it has apologised to its native Indian population, to countries like the Baltics for selling them into Soviet captivity, and to individuals and nations for some crimes which various of its military personnel have committed, and has tried and sentenced numerous individual guilty individuals. But Russia?

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Goran 09.04.2010 20:09

Semen, You're just the other end of the spectrum here. There are effectively no refutations to Stalin. He might have won WW2, but he is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of Soviet citizens and he ruled the USSR with an iron fist who was jealous of his own generals for their success and resultant popularity. He ruled entirely through fear.

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Goran 09.04.2010 19:52

Marzipan, I am curious as to which civilised norms you speak of that Russia is lacking, but the rest of the world has. What apologies have the USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, et al, made for colonialism, and resultant genocide of millions upon million? The same Powers that forced German apologies at Nuremburg committed mass rape, and murder of German civilians during and immediately after WW2. When did Austria, Hungary, and Germany apologise for Drang Noch Osten? Or purposely testing LSD and other narcotics on unwitting civilians? What civilised concepts do these nations have that makes them so superior to Russia when all they have going for them is being the victors of the recent major wars the world has seen? Different does not equal wrong. Not being purely innocent does not remove your own right to criticise the acts of others. Deal with it. Russia may be the successor state to the USSR, but Russians only constituted ~50% of the USSR in terms of population. Stalin was an ethnic Georgian, who made many acts in favour of Georgia, including breaking up Ossetia and gave the southern part to Georgia. He clearly acted mainly on ideological grounds, and then to a much lesser extent, ethnic ones. So then, do you blame Russia, which did not exist at the time, for the crimes of a Georgian that killed and manipulated his way into power, and who proceeded to commit mass murder on a scale not seen in the world since Genghis Khan. Should Tbilsi or Moscow prosecute? Who gets the blame for him? Even Soviet leadership right after his death began to say Stalin wasn't the man he ensured the Soviet propaganda machine made him out to be, nevermind current Russian leadership. When will Western leaders, current and former, be put to trial for the crimes under their respective administrations? No, Russia has no reason to do what no one else will just because your biased little ignorant mind thinks so.

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semen 12.03.2010 14:54

Winston Churchill has told about Stalin: "he has accepted Russia with a plough, and has left it with the nuclear bomb." Stalin has forced the whole world to respect the Soviet people! How is it possible to forget the Hero? The strong leader, such as Stalin is a necessity for the Russian Federation! Who can clear Russia of the blood-suckers exhausting resources from our lands and disorganizing the country... Stop unjustly accuse Stalin of murders, there is a plenty of refutations to it!

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Marzipan6 11.03.2010 09:01

Kihnu asks who has set the precedent in Russia which allows people impunity to imprison, torture and kill people with impunity in the name of the State? The answer is so obvious that I’m surprised Kihnu even asks: those in positions of authority who have steadfastly failed to even investigate, let alone prosecute, one single solitary person who committed crimes against humanity under the Soviet regime. Here we have a country in which anywhere from 10 to 50 million people were murdered by the State, and this is not even counting the untold millions of others who were unjustly enslaved in the vast GULAG prison camp system. And not a single suspect has been investigated by the authorities, and not a single person convicted of their crimes. “Obscene” is the only word that comes to mind to describe this. And the obscenity is magnified manifold because the same Russian officialdom constantly harangues neighbours like Estonia where murder and oppression were never the policy of a sovereign government like it was in Moscow and whose scope and volume is not a shadow of Russia’s, but who have nevertheless officially apologised for the individual actions of some of its citizens, like Moscow has not done. Kihnu and I are in agreement that standards falling far short of civilized norms are traditional in Russia. But Kihnu apparently believes, along with most Russians, that such Russian behaviour should be excused because … well, because it’s Russia. The rest of the world will not have any part of that particular notion. As I have said before, Kihnu, I have no bitterness to take to the grave. But Russia has an enormous national blind spot that has taken untold millions to premature graves, and that has the potential of taking millions more unless Russia changes. When people point out such problems with Russia, it is foolish to claim that the real problem is with messenger. Ot to exhonerate Russia by digressing to what other nations may or may not have done.

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Kihnu 10.03.2010 10:03

Marzipan6: "...never having to answer for their outrages in a court of law, as long as they commit such crimes in the name of the Russian state. ."(continuation) Apologies given after the fact and without restitution or reparations are meaningless gestures which the Americans seem to revel in for the past two decades, but don't expect such silly behavior from the Russians. Let's look at some famous American apologies and non-apologies: 20 09 - Apology to American indians for killing them off and stealing their lands - NO RESTITUTION OR REPARATIONS. 2009 - Apology to African Americans for slavery - NO RESTITUTION OR REPARATIONS. 1988 - Apology for internment of Japanese Americans during WW II - insignificant monetary award NO APOLOGY to Mexico for stealing southwest territories including California. NO APOLOGY to Japan for testing atom bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not American has been brought "to answer for their outrages in a court of law." Americans, during the past three decades, have become obsessed with self-flagellation where they apologize to everyone for something. If an American uses the word "nigger" screams of "apologize", "apologize" echo across the land. Americans have now become such frightened herd of sheep that certain politically incorrect words must only be spoken in the first initial, otherwise people are hounded into apologizing or losing their jobs - political correctness gone amok. Yes, believe me - that is what has become of the once mighty America. Marzipan 6, I will repeat myself again. It is not in Russian nature to apologizing to every Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Buryat, Samoed, Ostiak, or Iakut who they may have offended or been mean to. And, the Russian people don't even expect an apology from their own government for their historical suffering. Marzip an6, crying on RT for apologies from Russia will only intensify the agony in your soul. Try to relax.

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Kihnu 10.03.2010 03:55

Marzipan6: "an absolutely awful precedent has been firmly set for Russians that anyone can abuse, enslave and kill them with absolute impunity, never having to answer for their outrages in a court of law, as long as they commit such crimes in the name of the Russian state. " Who in your opinion has set this precedent? The tortured Russian history itself is the precedent. Throug hout Russia's history, the common people (serfs) suffered misery and terrible injustice. All Russians know and fear the two words "katorga" and Ssylka". The former means assignment to a Siberian penal colony, and the latter means banishment to live somewhere in Siberia. These punishments have been used by the Russian government officials since Russia began to expand into Siberia in the mid-1500. Katorga and Sslyka were used to populate Siberia and provide labor for the owners of salt mines and pelt merchants. Those who went to Siberia on their own will, to engage in the fur business, endured terrible hardships and learned to survive. The European "Enlightenment movements" bypassed the Russians who were under tight control of the Tsars and their courtiers who could condemn a person to flogging or death on a whim. Such was the life of the ordinary Russian (serf) for more than five hundred years. Then came Stalin and his NKVD. History is to blame for the misery and pain of the Russian people. You want Russia to be like Denmark or Sweden, but, Russia has never been a "humane" society in the style of Western Europe. Of course, Hitler's German showed how thin the veneer of civility really is. Who are you blaming for the misery the Russian people have had to endure? Who should be sent to stand trail in a court of law? The Stalinists and communists? Good luck trying to drag them to a court of law.

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Kihnu 09.03.2010 23:43

Marzipan6: "...never having to answer for their outrages in a court of law, as long as they commit such crimes in the name of the Russian state. ." I am curious about your instance that somebody in the Russian Federation should "answer for their outrages in a court of law". Please tell me exactly who the people are who should answer for Stalin's crimes? The only reason Germans paid for their crimes "in a court of law" was because they lost the war they themselves started. Nobody apologizes to the weak except out of expediency. I am sorry that your soul has been burdened with a bitterness that you will carry to your grave.

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Marzipan6 08.03.2010 19:00

I would like to share in your rejoicing, Rikard Baric, but I find this difficult to do. That is because an absolutely awful precedent has been firmly set for Russians that anyone can abuse, enslave and kill them with absolute impunity, never having to answer for their outrages in a court of law, as long as they commit such crimes in the name of the Russian state. Their killers continue to be celebrated by their state even decades later. I would hate for me and my children to have to live in such a country.

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Kihnu 07.03.2010 15:12

I often hear Stalin apologists say that "Stalin won the war for us". Yes, that is true, but at what cost? I believe that if Stalin had not killed millions of the best Russians and beheaded the Red Army, Hitler would never have dared to invade Russia. Red Army's poor performance against the Finns was one of the reasons Hitler concluded that he can defeat Russia during the summer and fall of 1941. Stalin killed off his best generals and installed his cronies prior to his attack on Finland. To the credit of the Russian people, they were able to regroup and face the German onslaught with generals like Zhukov, Vatutin and others. Stalin and his Georgian hordes in Moscow knew the weaknesses of the Russian people, and they exploited them to their advantage, and at the expense of tens of millions of Russian lives. Stalin and his Georgian thugs (Beria, etc) should be remembered by the Russian people the same way they remember the Mongols or the Germans - and, that is as destroyers of Russia.

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Rikard 07.03.2010 10:50

However I rejoice the present and yet unborn Russian generations and their neighbors.

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armen08 07.03.2010 06:20

RT's reports on Stalin do not surprise me anymore. They always follow an anti-Stalinist line. So do the self-appointed human rights groups of various colors. As to the comments, only the anti-Stalinist ones pass the censure. Meanwhile, the Russian people treat him as one of their most revered heroes, as popular polls have shown time after time. Don't they realize that millions upon millions of their compatriots to were lost Stalin's egregious crimes? Further, what's wrong with Patriarch Kirill? Doesn't he know Russian history? I guess we need to save the Russian from misconceptions about their history. We can hire anti-Stalinist ideologues of the West by the thousands and send them on a crusade to Russia. I also think RT should rid itself of ideological bias and give us the true feelings of the Russian people about one of the biggest monsters of the 20th century.

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Marzipan6 06.03.2010 10:54

I grieve for as yet unborn generations of Russians and their neighbours.

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Rikard 05.03.2010 14:47

Suppose we honor our grandfather-and-moth er anniversary but ignore the fact they were already divorced at that time of executing the victory. Whose identity was the one fighting for Russia; of the grandfather or of the grandmother? Today’s Russians – having no guts to take over Russia as the own identity – actually want Patriarch Kirill to turn up at the street carrying big Stalin’s poster ahead of marching Russian soldiers at the parade stuck up in the history.

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Sam 05.03.2010 14:29

I do not think that Stalin should be honoured with posters in any way.Sure he is a major part of that historical event, but he was also the one who is probably responsible for the early losses suffered by the Soviet army during operation barbarossa. I wonder how the red army may have faired if it was not so weakened by stalin's decapitation of its officer coup.Filling it with party "yes" boys with no military knowledge what so ever. After the Germans, he is next in line on the score board of how many Russians killed. My feeling is that he is better loved in Gori and maybe rest of his home of Georgia.If i was Russia, I would post his remains back to them- second class.

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Kihnu 05.03.2010 10:06

I find it incredulous that many Russians still idolize Stalin as a great hero. Stalin's monstrous crimes against the people of the USSR lead to the deaths of tens of millions of people, executions of the countries best intellectuals and his perfidious agreements with Hitler precipitated the Second World War. I hear people say that that Stalin won the war against Hitler. I say, on the other hand, that Stalin caused this war because he weakened the Red Army and his agreement with Hitler gave Germany a free hand to invade Poland. Stalin’s prewar purges contributed to Russia’s initial disastrous defeats of 1941. Stalin’s terror purges had eliminated the Red Army’s best senior officers: three of the five marshals, thirteen of the fifteen army commanders, eight of the nine fleet admirals, fifty of the fifty-seven corps commanders, and 154 of the 186 divisional commanders. Stalin in effect beheaded the Red Army and was responsible for their initial defeats in 1941. Had the USSR not been led by Stalin, the nation would have been much stronger and a counterbalance to Hitler's Germany. I wish that one day the Russian people will wake up and the grieve over the tens of millions of people executed or offered up on the battlefields by this bloody monster - instead of idolizing him.

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