All societies use 'torture' to some extent. The police use harsh interrogation, it is they who 'refined ' many of the practices. ('Good cop, bad cop'.)  What seems to be at odds is whether it works, not whether it's permissable. It's  difficult  to assess whether information gleaned in this manner saves lives or is truthful. Averting� �terrorism can be attributed to torture but without detail who knows.Who authorised and carried out the acts seems important. If someone says it was necessary then let them stand by that decision and any consequences that may follow.  That way it might be possible to determine if it was used as a last resort or was used routinely . What's certain is that without accountability by individuals it becomes much harder to find that out.I suspect the lack of anyone owning up to their involvement, plus the destruction of evidence, indicates it's use was very dubious in the first place.  

I have a pet monkey. He's very old, has Parkinson's, is almost blind and quite deaf. After reading this article I turned to the monkey and asked - 'Monkey, do you think torture is fruitless'? Monkey replied 'Eh'? (he's deaf remember) So I repeated, loudly - 'Monkey, do you think torture is fruitless"? He rep lied - "of course its fruitless you idiot, every soldier knows that information gained on the battlefield has a life-span of a maximum of three hours!' I thanked the monkey and gave him a bananna. I'm now wondering why it took the Senate more than ten years to work this out! Maybe they don't have a monkey to help them :)

it is like a "musician" who has ALL the "best training" and "experience" and even plays ALL the "correct notes" -- but SHOULDN"T be a musician or artist to begin with...because once he starts PLAYING a piece of Chopin or Rachmaninoff -- "THERE's NOTHING THERE".......


and in music -- THAT is why the USA CAN'T produce a musician or pianist even CLOSE to the greatness of Sviatoslav Richter......



so -- like a "musician" with all the "best training" in the world -- that plays "everything well" -- but doesn't SAY anything of importance demanded BY the music -- and the "brilliance" is only for SHOW -- in order to OBSCURE the FACT that that "player" is UNmusical and is NO artist at all ---

American politicans and leaders and the institutions of its "corporate" Empire --

TALK about the "highest noble ideas" with amazing rhetorical expertise --

in order to OBSCURE that FACT that -- when they put words together about :

"justice, truth, accountability, trust, righteousness, morality, Lawfulness, Respect for rights and humanity...peace, prosperity, fairness, " etc. etc. etc...
they are SAYING NOTHING at all about those things -- and when they OPEN their mouths as lawmakers, as judges, as "leaders" -- and talk about NOBLE ideas for humanity -- that they "will be the leaders of humanity" of -- they do so to OBSCURe the fact that in reality -- they are themselves the PRIME AUTHORS of CRIMES against the very t hings they MASTERFULLY put in words .




in fact -- if there is ANYTHING that America is BEST at -- it IS this very MASTERY of the CORRUPTION of Language.

that makes Black -- into white -- or UP is DOWN, "slavery is freedom", WAR is "peace", LYING is "truthINESS", PRETENDING is "realness".

NO nation or culture on earth comes CLOSE to that mastery as the USA .

as William Shakespeare said:

Much ado about nothing .....


a LOT of TALK about MORALITY -- and every variation on what it IS or Menas...but IMMORAL just the same. -- such as "WAR is PEACE" behind plenty of words --and PLENTY of THEATRICAL "show of free discourse".


this so-called "discourse" in american politics -- displaying it to the world as the "performance" of the "world's greatest body of law" (US Congress and politicians and leaderships) --

is , in its USE of the English Language, and language itself -- is the Prime Example -- of what the great British Writer George Orwell ("1984") --

described as "The politician uses language to give SUBSTANCE to PURE WIND"....

and "the CORRUPTION of Language".

AMERICA and its leaders -- in its Corporate WorlDISM -- and its national Ethos -- is EXACTLY that example for the world to see.

ALL for SHOW -- to PRETEND at being "moral", being "ethical", being "conscientious", being "just", being "lawful", being a "great deliberative body of lawmakers".

but underneath all the WORDS and the PANTOMIME of "leadership of the world" -- is

PURE CORRUPTION.
 

i would approach this whole CHARADE of american "discourse" about "legalities" , "effectiveness", etc. etc. etc....of not only this matter of TORTURE but many other things, from the standpoint of my own background as a musician.

my own education as a classical musician has had about equal exposure to AMERICAN "professors" - as well as RUSSIAN professors.

my observation over the decades of exposure to them has led me to this conclusion:

Americans love to TALK a LOT - codify, "define", "organize", "dissect", apply adjectives, measure, "evaluate", "reference", "check", attach absolutes, --- but the RESULT is musical performances and knowledge that are inartistic, unoriginal, unmusical...and robotic...

th e Russian teachers, somehow, always managed to impart something that could NOT be "quantified" but ALWAYS unmistakably MUSICAL and Artistic....

in other words -- its counterpart in American "political life" or many other matters of essence to LIFE -

americans tend to "TALK" with NOTHING really important to say. ...

as in "Change is coming" -- followed by many many fanciful wordings -- but there is NO change. ...as obama shows...

as in:
"democracy...bla h..blah" -- but it is the SAME game of "democracy AT the barrel of a gun".

"we have to be concerned that TORTURE is not so effective" -- but it really means :

"TORTURE just the same....", "we are a nation of laws" -- "laws this, laws that" -- but LAWLESSNESS is the real order of the day....

Dumbest assertion EVER: US has not killed in millions. 
Japan - where did the A-bombs land? No casualties?Vietnam - no casualties?Koreas - no casualties?Colombia - no casualties?Afrika - no casualties?Afganista n - no casualties?Iraq (more than once) - no casualties?Syria - no casualties?Pakistan - no casualties? 
Naz i Germany - what happened with "operation paperclip?" They became NASA. 

FSMH wrote in #11
I think there is a slight difference between USA & Nazi Germany - USA hasn't murdered millions of Jews, Slavs, black people, ethnic minorities, physically and mentally disabled etc in gas chambers. 
If you could read a truthful account of history you might realise that  the Rothschilds and the crooked Federal Reserve and Wall Street the the entire Zionist empire (based in the USA and later Israel) were largely responsible for the two world wars and the world economic depressions and the Holocaust (among several other genocides we never hear about) and the deaths of millions of Arabs in the Middle East since the 1930`s.....and my assassination in 1940`s Britain.Of course Hollywood is rather quiet about all that.....but then it`s run....like the USA....by Zionists!

Good contest.     Who is worse?                        It's true that Americans don't kill Jews,   but they kill everyone else,   millions of them.    Anyone who dares to oppose them.   Remember  Dr. Kelly's  "suiside"  ,he opposed Iraques war,  then  he felt so bad about it that he "killed himself" , in a back yard,  no letter.        Head of   BBC  was also  replaced for the same reason.  And look at BBC now, nice mouth peece for govrnment, payed by tax payers.  And top executives  making millions.  Good job  BBC!  Remamber     "for the pople by the people"  Get real.       � �         � �         � �         � �       Seriously.      

FSMH wrote in #9
Ancient Briton - Sorry you have completely lost me I'm afraid.  The obvious retort is that it would not be hard to  lose someone who can`t look up Lord Moyne in the history books ...Agent Orange! LOLThat sort of  feeble adolescent diversionary drivel probably serves for argument in whatever third rate educational establishment you CIAregime changers and  torturers attended.....but regrettably your  homicidal Zionist empire of BS is no better than the British or Spanish or Ottoman empires before it ....Agent Madoff....and it`s even doubtful if it will hold any advantages over the BRICS empire to which you half-wits have managed to gift us as subjects .......once the US CIA/NATO/Zionist/Cos a Nostra empire of fraud and debt finally collapses taking western "Enlightenment" civilisation with it!What a loss we will be...I don`t think!

I think there is a slight difference between USA & Nazi Germany - USA hasn't murdered millions of Jews, Slavs, black people, ethnic minorities, physically and mentally disabled etc in gas chambers. To compare the two is just ridiculous frankly . Although I agree with your point about the lack of moral fibre and extreme hypocrisy. USA talks of freedom and equality for everyone -but-really-only-if- you-are-white-anglo- saxon-and-protestant plus remember This was the nation founded on Liberty and equality and of course slavery and repression of the indiginous population! And yes their foreign policy over the last 60 years has been in direct conflict with their own beliefs and values of freedom and democracy. But of course there is another nation that is guilty of invading and occupying many nations for many years, repressing the indiginous populations and committing mass murder and brutal repression - hands up who knows which country that was??? Of course Stalin's Russia. Every Nation has a dark side. Don't forget that.