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Russian activists in Crimea have held a mourning rally to mark the date when Nikita Khrushchev formally gave the Black Sea republic to Ukraine.
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Larisa, if you do a quick survey you will find that there are literally hundreds of articles and forum topics on RT to which I have never contributed a syllable.
This article is about the Soviet Union, Crimea, Stalin and the alleged generosity of Soviet territorial manipulations. The Baltics are scarcely off-topic in such a context. My original reference to the Baltics was limited, but then others took up the discussion, sometimes by posting material which I believe does not coincide with facts. I have brought relevant facts to bear on their assertions, and discussions have proceeded from there.
Obviously the subject must be of some interest, else people would not participate. I suggest that the interest stems from the fact that Moscow continues to maintain and vigorously promote a position which is historically and factually indefensible. When I bring relevant facts to bear, some readers react in a fairly volatile way.
And by the way, the facts that I present, being facts, are not something I dreamed up myself last night. They are commonly available from all relevant reference sources. Many entire nations find Russia’s embrace of certain Soviet-era fictions highly offensive, and this constantly handicaps Russia’s foreign policies and harms its image abroad – perhaps you have noticed. One would think that Russian policymakers would have noticed as well, and initiated changes that would bring genuine advantage to their country. The real question is, why does Russia maintain such positions, not why do I and others refute them.
Jsmith: the opening lines of the Soviet anthem go, "Unbreakable bond of freeborn republics / put together by great Russia."
Some leading Soviet personalities were indeed not Russian. But the Soviet Union itself was a Russian thing, built as an aggrandizement of Russian chauvinism, not the chauvinism of any other single Soviet "republic" nor of the lot of them together.
Of course the Soviet Union oppressed Russians in Russia. The foolishness of the Soviet Union was, that dogma was always and forever much more important than people. But in non-Russian areas like the Baltics, local Baltic people were discriminated against at the hand of Russians and in the service of Soviet dogma even more than Russians themselves were. There are more examples of this than could be fitted into a hundred forum posts.
why do you all keep going back and forth? if you have your opinions then keep it to yourself! if you believe your opinion is correct then it should not matter what others think express your opinions in other ways then arguing, that's what ruined several governments around the world. discussion is valid but listen to what others are saying! do not just assume that what others opinions say is untrue. every statistic you find on the internet is not entirely accurate, so just read a book on the subject! I believe that more people find correct statistics and information while reading an informing book then you would on some random website.
To whoever it may concern:
What about the Crimea?
Do not expect me to respond - I don't feel like walking in rounds.
marzipan, Russia did not ask for communist rule, suffered grievously under it, both personally and in terms of national damage&also, did all that could be done to resist. But Russia still inherits 100% of the soviet debt. In all fairness, you can't compare communist rule in Estonia to the siege of Leningrad, feel free to delude yourself though
Fremder, it is sad that anti-Estonian bias can be so determined that it overlooks verifiable records of history and elevates comments of a casual acquaintance to become the fount of all truth. Sad because it embraces the distortions and accusations of the Baltics’ Soviet/Russian oppressors not for the purpose of highlighting realities, but for the purpose of discrediting Estonia and its Baltic neighbours so as to provide a smokescreen behind which to hide the crimes of their Soviet invaders and oppressors. One can almost understand why official Russia might consider it in its interests to do this, because it has the decency to feel at least a tinge of discomfort and embarrassment over crimes which Russians under the Soviet flag committed against Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians – although Russia is yet to verbalize this. But why Fremder should choose to buy into that same unlovely campaign is unclear.
Jsmith, Estonia did not ask for Soviet occupation, did not want it, suffered grievously under it both personally and in terms of massive national damage, resisted it with whatever means it had at its disposal for 50 years, and at the first opportunity that it had, even before the end of the Soviet Union itself, it got out of there. It was never, never a legitimate part of the Soviet Union, only a foreign country occupied by it. It has as much responsibility for Soviet debt and Russia has for expenses that the Third Reich incurred in the siege of Leningrad.
Vse.berlin, if the granting of full naturalization to illegal immigrants by the scores of thousands through standard naturalization is a “humiliation”, then please don’t ever illegally enter a foreign country and ask for citizenship. Firstly you’ll probably be deported at once, and if not, you’ll at least have to learn the language of the land and make a commitment to it. Either way, you’ll apparently think you have experienced a terrible humiliation.
Dear RT, I would like to know how long marzipan6 will be allowed to monopolize and highjack every concievable and inconcievable discussion on this website? This particular article and discussion is about Crimea, and yet he managed to inflict his presence on us here too and in no time succeeded in poluting even this space!
Everyone already knows his agenda backwards and forwards, yet he is allowed to post his nonsense for the sake of "political correctness". It appears one can't hide anywehere from him. Isn't it enough?
I am not even remotely interested in Estonia. Let them be where they are and leave the rest of us alone. I am interested in discussing Crimea and Ukraine.
Please, RT, correct this situation. Thank you very much in advance!
It has not occurred to me to assess Marzipan’s statements from the view point that you suggested. Right you are!
By the way, there you got the expected “diatribe how Estonians were distrustful toward Russians”. Actually, after the coverage of “the glorious Estonian victory” the next step can easily be a globe of Estonia.
During the Soviet times I was naive enough to feel soooo sorrrry for dear defenceless Estonians who were mercilessly sent to Siberia with no reasons whatsoever, and I sighed full of sympathy hearing their saying “The one is no Estonian if he hasn’t been the Siberia”. Had the official Soviet Union been a bit more inclined just to tell the truth, its average citizens would have known more about their Baltic brethren and their ability to adjust to the circumstances which during the Nazi occupation took the shape of their mass membership in the SS. Some time ago I happen to speak to a German whose father had been in the SS and whose contingent had been located in Estonia. The man quoted his father who had said: “We didn’t have to solve any Jewish question ourselves. Estonians were only too eager to do the job.” Later they were only too eager to join the Communist Party, now – to glorify their SS freedom fighters.
The more of Marzipan’s posts I read the stronger I am convinced to never ever enter Estonia and spend even a fraction of a cent there – let them thrive without my participation. Or survive.
marzipan6, the bolsheviks who signed the treaty of tartu are not the same bolsheviks who took the 5% from Estonia. Lenin was dead.....
marzipan6, it seems that an agreement with strings attached, or that leaves the door open to further disagreement, could not, by definition be an agreement. also, the signing of a treaty doesn't mean it's agreed on, just it's agreed that ratification will be considered.
it's funny when you say :"The Russian Federation declared itself the chief successor state of the Soviet Union, inheriting its international commitments"
I agree totally with you, the Russian Federation did inherit commitments from the Soviet Union, including it's debt. It's even funnier how all the former soviet republics were equally quick to distance them from these commitments. Really, to be fair, the debt should be divided up equally...
@Marzipan ... according to your propaganda Estonians are angels ..... well in reality they've done many bad things and are still doing .... and after that you're demanding an apology ??? Stop being a hypocrite ...
VseBerlin, you are right, the way Estonia treated Yudenich’s White Russian Army was bad. Estonians recognize this, and there is comment about it from time to time within the government. Most recently I heard that Estonia wishes to set up a monument to those soldiers – which doesn’t make anything better, but which I believe is a needful and honourable thing to do.
At the time, Estonia was fighting for its life in its War of Independence, and greatly outnumbered by its enemies. It had doubts about Yudenich’s intentions towards Estonia, and felt that it could not risk an armed fifth column within its borders while its battle with their Red compatriots was so desperate. Estonia disarmed Yudenich’s army in a camp where, very unfortunately, many died of typhus. It was a bad thing, but it happened.
I’m against. Show must go on.
M6 is an eye opener. Before I thought that Estonians are nice, friendly guys with some quirks like anyone else. After his speeches I start to understand that it was Soviet propaganda which led me to believe this nonsense.
There is an additional benefit. I refreshed my history knowledge and discovered some interesting things.
Seems like humiliation of Russians who happens to fall under Estonian regime is a national entertainment. During this heroic was he refers to, White Russian Army under command of Yudenich fought together with Estonians against Bolsheviks. And guess what Estonians did to this army. First they betrayed them. Second, they sent Russians to camps (would not call concentration but camps) where they died from typhus en masse, remains of the army were sent to the forest to cut the wood. Should we say that it was prototype of GULAG? Ohh and famous and precious Estonian citizenship. Russian had to buy it and I must say it was pretty expensive.
Now, I hold my breath waiting next diatribe how Estonians were distrustful toward Russians and having all the right to kill them, instead due to merciful nature they just sent them to labor camps.
Jsmith, I overlooked mentioning in my other response to you that Estonia has absolutely zero territorial claims against anyone, including Russia. It has signed and ratified a border treaty with Russia which has ceded the disputed territory to Russia. Russia has also signed the same treaty, but subsequently has refused to ratify it, and amazingly, thereafter withdrew its already given signature.
Nor have I ever said that foreigners “know absolutely nothing” about Estonia. Only very, very little. And much of the little that they think they do know is not accurate knowledge at all, but Soviet/Russian propaganda distortions.
Jssmith, what Bolsheviks did to Russia is in no way lessens the validity of the fact that the same Bolsheviks, who created the Soviet Union, signed the Tartu Peace Treaty with Estonia in 1920, and the terms of the treaty thereafter obligated the Soviet Union. Of course they Soviets promptly violated it in 1924 by mounting a covert military invasion of Estonia with the aim of seizing the government and fomenting a coup. This bloody attack was put down by Estonian forces, but the Soviets’ next attempt in 1940, mounted while the world was mesmerized by the fall of France and by Britain fighting for its life, was successful, and its occupation of the land lasted until August 1991.
The Russian Federation declared itself the chief successor state of the Soviet Union, inheriting its international commitments, amongst them Moscow’s commitment to the Tartu Peace Treaty.
Slabib, the statistics I quote come from the Estonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Running a web search on “citizenship valisministeerium” will quickly take you to the relevant web page, from which you will learn much about Estonian citizenship that you need to know if you choose to publicly comment on the matter.
Your claim that Estonian citizenship requirements apply only to people of Russian origin is sheerest nonsense. They apply equally to all in Estonia, and no one at all complains except Russians. This is because no one other than Russians continue to experience imperial twitches in regard to Estonia, feeling that somehow they should have special privileges there.
You also write nonsense about some kind of “illegal aliens’ passport” in Estonia which supposedly designate that their holders are live illegally in Estonia. Everyone who lives in Estonia today does so legally, because the Estonian government has legalized their residence there. But not everyone arrived legally. And not every one has subsequently sought naturalization to become Estonian citizens. To make travel abroad possible for those who haven’t, the Estonian government has issued identity documents which specifically designate their holders as people who are legal residents of Estonia even though they have chosen not to take Estonian or any other citizenship.
Fremder, please research a bit of history before publicly commenting on matters about which you seem to know very little. Doing a web search on “Estonian War of Independence” would be a good start. Going to a library and researching serious history sources would be even better.
Between 28 November 1918 and 2 February 1920 Estonia waged a War of Independence against the German Landeswehr and against the Red Army. Obviously Germany and Russia had been weakened by WW1, but so had Estonia, and unlike the other two, Estonia was a brand new independent nation with virtually no institutions of nationhood properly in place yet. It was attacked simultaneously on two fronts, from the east and south, by everything that the Red Army and Landeswehr could throw at it, and it so happens that Estonia beat them both. At its peak, the Estonian army numbered 74,500 men. It suffered 3,600 deaths, and many more thousand injuries. But it won the war, and Estonia’s national independence, which both Russia and Germany tried to prevent, was its prize
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