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New labels for Katyn massacre hamper Russo-Polish relations

Published: 23 September, 2009, 13:54
Edited: 16 July, 2010, 15:28


Katyn massacre war memorial, Poland

The Polish parliament has adopted, without a vote or debate, a resolution that blames Russia for genocide, an allegation Moscow denies. Russia says the move will strain already tense bilateral relations.

 
24 COMMENTS
Vladimir September 23, 2009, 10:16 quote
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The Poles have obviously gone too far! Calling the Katyn massacre a genocide (20 000 murdered) aimed at Polish people as a whole is clearly an exaggeration. I think the latest move of the Polish Parliament is just another reflection of hatred that the Poles pursue for centuries not only towards Russians, but as well towards all of the Orthodox Slavs. The Poles and the western Ukrainians, as Roman Catholics, enjoy in seeing themselves as a last barrier of the "civilized world" against "eastern barbarians". If they succeed in imposing this picture they believe they can count on a non-disputable support of those residing further on the west. However, any policy of openness towards Russia of the core western countries has traditionally been taken by the Poles as a potentially great threat, as they fear they could be over-bridged in such west-Russian relations. That is why the Polish reaction is a bit hysteric now, particularly after Obama has abandoned the AMD in Poland. After all, why should Russians feel responsible for crimes of the communists? It were these communists that killed Emperor Nikolai, his wife, his the only son and all daughters. Communists have also massacred not less than a few millions of Russian elite at the time. Now it seems that those who had supported the terrorist elements in Russia from the prerevolutionary time, subsequently suffered a lot from the very same terrorists (communists)!

Paul O Connell September 23, 2009, 10:18 quote
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The Katyn massacre was a war crime not genocide. The Polish people have every right to be aggrieved over this but calling it genocide is wrong. One has to remember that Stalin murdered millions of his own people and not just Poles and other nationalities. History has already judged Stalin as a tyrant!!

Marzipan6 September 23, 2009, 12:57 quote
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Russia has a very odd attitude indeed. The name which the Polish parliament gives an atrocity which Russians committed against it is a big, big drama. The fact that Russians committed that horror in the first place doesn’t seem to worry Moscow at all.

toma September 23, 2009, 18:23 quote
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it seems they want to overshadow their own imperial crimes, their support of instability pre-ww2 and constant drive for more territory. They strive for more territory- they use´Catholicism´(as sort of nationalism, I´m catholic myself and I don't hold the eastern rite to be any lower than ours, its just misuse of difference to incite hatred-and guess who´s behind hatred-surely not the church itself, but...) as its weapon of psychology. After Austro-Hungary was gone, they always claimed territory from Czechoslovakia, openly cooperated with Hitler. This is not a pacifist country they made west to believe. They're like Hungary- first beg greater power for relative success and then pay dearly, once their trust in the west was misused. Being open russophobe doesn't help anybody, except third party for exploitation. This is nothing more than a propaganda aimed for their own people. Get it to teaching books and you have a generation of hatred-filled people dreaming of past ´glory´(irredentism). Now its true, communists that came from outside slaughtered many people, then NKVD with GERMAN cooperation killed those thousands of Poles. Why don't they blame Germans as well? Because they would isolate themselves? Or they have enough domestic problems and Germany is next to them? (if I don't count Kaliningrad) Poles (especially politicians) are great at hypocrisy & opportunism and shouldn't be taken seriously. But twisting history to selfish needs at the same time is a recipe for real disaster. They were numerous in the last century. Vladimir, if you read it, there's nothing like this over here.(eastern Slovakia) Poles can't actually think objectively... But time will bring them harsh reality. Guaranteed.

toma September 23, 2009, 22:50 quote
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Vladimir, I as a catholic can tell you its just what Poles try to make it look as if catholic & orthodox are far away from each other. Aggression or provoking to aggression is far from what Lord tells us. Love your neighbor, and don't demand anything that is his. Be it catholic or orthodox, a believer needs to work on himself, is independent while other religions are based on strict order and threat of punishment. When a´believer´doesn't live like Christian, he´s usually almost as good as an atheist (except they hate´any religion´except their personal)

Marzipan6 September 23, 2009, 23:16 quote
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Vladimir asks why should Russians feel responsible for crimes of the communists? For pretty much the same reasons, Vlad, that Germans needed to take responsibility and atone for crimes of Nazis. Until Russia does so and genuinely reconciles with the peoples that Russians, under the Soviet flag, vicitimised and abused, those crimes will continue to hang as an albatross around Russia's neck, whichever way it turns. The logic by which Russians are absolved of the need to apologise to others because Russians also killed Russians is simply bizarre.

Ilya September 24, 2009, 00:30 quote
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It was all anti-Soviet propaganda after the USSR breakup. Why should a government admit having committed such a terrible crime if the blame had been cast upon Nazi for such a long time? You'd better read some books on the issue. There are too many undecided questions as to who commited the massacre.

s.s. atmodjo September 24, 2009, 01:14 quote
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war is degradation of humanity regardless whoever waging it, Putin was right by taking lesson from it and not rewriting it to prevent future war and degradation.but at least Yeltsin have apologized for the crime committed nobody apologized to the Japanese for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki or the destruction of Iraq

Walter September 24, 2009, 03:09 quote
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Why don't the Poles complain about the 6,000,000 of their citizens killed by the Nazis? Half of them Jews and half ethnic Poles. The Poles were not nice to the Ukrainians , Russians and Byelorussians that they ruled over between the 2 world wars. Maybe this is a simple case of revenge.

Marzipan6 September 24, 2009, 09:00 quote
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I think you miss the point, Walter. Although atrocities were committed by various people upon various victims, including the ones you mentioned, problems remain primarily in regard to Russia. And not just in regard to Russia and Poland, but in regard to Russia and a collection of countries. The reason is very simple: Germany does not deny its Nazi-era history and crimes, and has apologized and sought genuine reconciliation with its victims. As far as I am aware, Poles similarly do not deny crimes which Polish people in the past have committed, and have sought reconciliation. The same is certainly true of the Baltics. But it is not true of Russia. Russia continues to duck and weave and dodge and prevaricate. Getting it to honestly face its Soviet past is very similar to trying to drag a cat backwards by the tail through a very tight hole. This ensures that Russia is unable to enjoy a relationship based on mutual trust and respect with many of its neighbours.

Luk September 24, 2009, 11:14 quote
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Vladimir and others- as you may read in both this article and the resolution it describes, it's not about calling a Katyń massacre where, excuse me, "only just a mere 20000" were executed, it describes a whole chain of Soviet crimes towards Polish people commited after 17 September 1939 as crimes having features of genocide. There were actually many more places across the USSR where these executions have been done in the same manner and on basis of the same orders on detained members of Polish inteligentsia, officer corps, administration members, priests and many other groups which all had a specific common denominator - a Polish nationality. Therefore, all these acts (not limited to Katyn executions) may not only be described as war crimes and crimes against humanity, but also as genocide in accordance with the article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention. It's good to add that these were the Russian authorities - the Military Prosecutor's Office - who have also recognised this as a genocide in final report from a 1993-closed investigation. Moreover, Soviet prosecutors recognised this as a genocide during the Nurnberg trials but demanded sentencing the Germans for this, as the Soviet propaganda defense pattern for this was to blame the Germans for these killings. However, the tribunal rejected sentencing Germans for this, as they knew who was behind. P.S. all of this is not in any way directed against the Russian people and U can't say Poles have some kind of hatred towards eastern Slavs - if you do so, you'd also have to admit Russians do the same! It's the Russian authorities (legal succesor of the USSR) who somehow try to whiten the Soviet crimes, which were directed against the Russian people as well.But it cannot be used as a justification, same as the fact that German people (soldiers and civilians) suffered from the Nazi rule and the WWII cannot be (and isn't) used to whiten the Nazi atrocities!

Luk September 24, 2009, 12:04 quote
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Toma - what you say about Poland always wanting to claim territory from Czechoslovakia and openly cooperating with Hitler is basically untrue. If you're writing about Poland seizing a part of its territory in 1938 (which was, of course, a political mistake, especially considering the timing) U have to remember just a little earlier history of this area and, what is more important, that Poles made a majority of local population there. Of course, that was all wrong and Polish officials would say the same, so don't make sweat about that. And there was no "open colaboration" with Hitler - Poland signed a non-aggresion treaty with them in 1934, same as it signed the same one with USSR in 1932 (and, contrary to Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, none of these included any protocols dividing any "spheres of influence"), and ran a so-called "equal distance" policy towards both of them until 1939. I'm not saying Poland was always a pacifist country - NONE European country was! Difference between all lies in methods. And it is not that we "don't blame" the Germans - of course we do, while the difference is that they not only recognise their crimes from WWII, but also apologise for them and made efforts for reconciliation (which I think has generally taken place) - which is,unfortunately,absolutely the other way around with Russia. It especially has nothing to do with, what you wrote "not isolating ourselves because of neighbourhood with Germans and own domestic problems" because non of these issues exist. Peace!

Rikard September 24, 2009, 13:12 quote
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When a political outcome appears in a form of exploiting guilt then we are positive that those governments’ energies are wasted and cannot hide the lack of competence. It is the experienced fact that two peoples in dispute will never solve this dispute by the best of assertive arguing. However if they move together one single common life-demanding item – the dispute lessens even though both don’t consider it. Katyn has no chance to resurrect because resurrection is non-producible and non-achievable substance. Life does it! Kafka missed the point when eliminating the obvious life and kept writing on the road to suicide.

Alex September 24, 2009, 17:51 quote
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It wasn't a big drama .. considering the fact that they have attacked us several times in the past .. they have no right to complain at all ... besides their attidute was hostile and agressive towards russia in 1939 ... and they have attacked before .. this time sovjet union decided to attack first out of precaussion ... so don't cry .. you have earned it. Oh and to @ Marzipan .. in the future .. don't speak about russian conflict from the past .. they are none of your bussiness we will sort them out ourselves.

Marzipan6 September 25, 2009, 05:43 quote
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Alex advises me, “In the future .. don't speak about Russian conflict from the past .. they are none of your business we will sort them out ourselves.” Oh, but some of it is very, very much my business, Alex, because some of those conflicts were directed against my family, my relatives, my people, my country, and determined that my life should begin as a refugee from Soviet Russian atrocities. I will most assuredly speak of them. And Russia will not have sorted it out until it has sorted it out with those whom it victimised.

alex September 25, 2009, 08:20 quote
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@Marzipan .. well .. maybe your government has brought it itself ..???

Parallax September 25, 2009, 14:26 quote
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If only Poland and Rumania allowed Soviet troops on its territory to stop Hitler, then the West-Soviet alliance would be formed and there would be no WWII... The Polish said they were afraid that the Soviet army wouldn't leave... maybe, who knows, but they would have left in 1953, when Stalin died. And there would be no Katyn massacre.

K0 September 25, 2009, 22:24 quote
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@Marzipan you are not right if you say that Russia denies crimes. For example, I have watched a documentary about the Nürnberg trials on VESTI, about Katyn and MRPact they said it was "our" or "soviet" crimes. This is not an opposition news channel. Another thing is the constant whining of Poland (or their politicians) and not only towards Russia... There will be no Russian Willy Brand!

Marzipan6 September 26, 2009, 01:11 quote
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Alex thinks that Soviet Russia’s brutalization of its Baltic neighbours was the fault of the victims. One doesn’t know whether to suggest a study of relevant history or a study in personal ethics as the best response to that notion.

alex September 26, 2009, 13:08 quote
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@Marzipan .. throughout the centuries Poland was hostile towards Russia and .. always started the wars first...robbing .. murdering .. raping .... when the sides have turned they have suddently started to play the victims and blame us for everything ... i'm sorry but you have brought that on yourselves ... it's your own fault ... IT'S YOU WHO NEEDS A LESSON IN HYSTORY MARZIPAN ... You can thank ancestors your for that ... According to you ideology ... the current German population is apologizing for Nazi crimes ... so you have suffered for the atrocities that Baltics have comminted against Russians. So stop crying ... you have deserved it ... I´M RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG. Go and preach your onesided propaganda elsewhere.

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