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New Polish law equates Communist and Nazi symbols

Published: 30 November, 2009, 18:41
Edited: 05 October, 2010, 20:46


Europe has long been condemning the communist regime, but none of the countries has gone as far as Poland, where a law was signed allowing people to be fined or imprisoned for keeping and buying communist symbols.

 
32 COMMENTS
Sarah November 30, 2009, 23:09 quote
+1

I love communist symbols and most of all songs of the Red Army and the Red Star [I do hope somebody will produce retro nostalgia winter clothing bearing the insignia of the Red Army and other communism symbols. The good think is I do no live in Poland. Eastern Europe is becoming retrograde- and reactionary. This is truly scary. I wonder of the population in Eastern Europe think about pro war, pro imperialist foreign policies of their countries even as they seek to outlaw the communist sign. Fascists always hate communism and the nations of Eastern Europe such as Poland-who support and have fought for illegal and immoral S.U imperialistic wars of empire building in Iraq and Afghanistan hate communist symbols for the same reason Hitler hated communism! This is because their foreign policies of pro war and pro imperialism is closer to those of the Third Reich than that of the Soviet Union.

Bart December 01, 2009, 09:03 quote
-1

Sarah, Do you know what is really scary? Being shot in the back of your head by NKVD is scary, being brutally interrogated in Lubyanka is scary, being sent to Gulag is scary. Being arrested in the middle of the night and robbed of the everything your family worked for for generations, just because you are not working class is scary. Being removed of the university and declined any job only for saying that communism may not be so brilliant. This is scary.

Marzipan6 December 01, 2009, 10:43 quote
-1

The article states, “Twenty years after the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, the Polish government are about to completely erase memories of the Cold War past.” Never was the exact opposite of the truth stated with more precision. Poles can NEVER erase the memories of Soviet domination – the pain and loss which Soviet control wreaked on Polish people is just too deep. Precisely because the era of Soviet control CANNOT be forgotten, Communist symbols evoke its pain and cause it to wash over people again and again. Polish people don’t want to be endlessly traumatized in this way, and the present legislation represents the Poles’ way of buffering themselves against it. The article continues, “The anti-communist mood is especially strong in the Baltic States, which tend to see the Soviet era as 'an occupation', claiming that the USSR illegally annexed Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia in 1940. Moscow insists the three republics were liberated from Nazi Germany and then voluntarily joined the Soviet Union.” When a country collectively believes itself to be, or to have been, occupied, its belief is almost always correct. When a country thus accused of being an occupier denies it, its denial is almost always incorrect. This should be accepted as a law of geopolitics, and known as the Moscow Principle. I challenge RT or anyone else to produce even the least shred of credible evidence that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania "voluntarily joined" the Soviet Union. This is one of the most cynical of Stalin's lies which, astonishingly enough and without the benefit of any factual evidence supporting it and despite mountains of evidence contradicting it, contemporary Moscow continues to embrace.

4boby December 01, 2009, 11:18 quote
-1

@ Sarah One should bear in mind the impressive number of communist victims. But this is not the aspect I wanted to comment on. From the Eastern European point of view (esp. Poland, the Baltic States and probably Western Ukraine) Soviet domination was a form of a occupation. And this occupation resulted in a number of victims in 40’s and at the beginning of 50’s. On the other hand – the present US domination is heavier – compared to the Soviet domination in 60’s-80’s. Example – Polish Army was forced to participate in the pacification of Czechoslovakia in 1968, but did not have to go to Afghanistan during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. Polish Army has to fight with Afghan mountaineers during the US war with Afghanistan. In Poland very few people love communist symbols like you do. Mainly naïve young radicals, who try to look like their Western friends. The majority of the public remembers that communism was an oppressive system. This political initiative (ban on Soviet symbols) is promoted at the time of the economic crisis. Poland is not falling (yet?) like Ukraine or is not bankrupt (yet?) like Latvia, but it is always a good idea to create an event to attract the public attention. People would not have time to discuss the economic situation. Polish people hate Russia. This filing has long tradition and is promoted starting from the early public education. The reason: Poland/Lithuania Union ~400 years ago was the largest possessor of Russian land. Poland/Lithuania Union had a chance to become a regional power. But he country lost its status and 230 years ago became the Russian province. Polish resentment probably results from history. Many people mix communism with Russia and hate both even heavier.

Marzipan6 December 01, 2009, 13:09 quote
-1

Sarah, perhaps you should set aside the ideological blinkers that interpret every natural human reaction of recoiling from pain as being some kind of crazy ideological war between fascism and communism, and see it for the simple human reality that it is. Yes, some Red Army songs are great – I used to have recordings of them, and had nothing against their musical quality. The Horst Wessel Song is stirring, too, although I never owned any recording of it, and never intend to. But what was done to real flesh and blood people by cruel, cruel agressors marching to the tunes of both has made that music, and other symbols and regalia associated with it, memory tags to almost unendurable pain and loss. Perhaps you should respect that suffering and do what I did – throw away your Red Army songs.

alex December 01, 2009, 13:56 quote
+1

@Marzipan ... Poland deserved that one .. they wanted to conquer us multiple times in the past .... but got conquered themselves instead ... so stop crying...

Sarah December 01, 2009, 13:59 quote
+1

Bart My own family had been victims of communist repression. Member of my family were tortured, some have disappeared and even my uncle was sent to Siberia for good Soviet re-education. So I do know something about political repression in the hands of security agents trained in the Soviet Union. But that regimes has committed the greatest crime of repression against the Russia/Soviet people- most famously the massive slaughter of Soviet civilians and the Red Army troops in 1941 by the Third Reich were due first and foremost to Stalin’s purge of 90% of Red Army military leaders. In reality, the desire to link Soviet symbols with Nazi symbols is driven by nations of the former eastern bloc who are now servants of the United States. Good thing is these are little countries and their historical revisionism will end when the U.S empire stops sending them money. it is also pertinent to mention that these nations are increasingly right wing nationalistic and they will bring down the values of the Old Europe.. It is pathetic that nations who have participated the most heinous illegal war of the 21 century, the U.S invasion and the occupation of Iraq, want to play the only historical victims of Soviet repression!This silly historical revisionism has nothing to do with history; it has everything to do with current political agenda designed against Russia. To link the banner under which the greatest army of 20the century The Red Army fought, die and won over the greatest evil of known history, the Third Reich, is nothing short than disgusting. I have never visited Poland and I have no need to ever visit there and if I do I will make sure I wear clearly visible symbol of the Red Army!

alex December 01, 2009, 14:03 quote
+1

@Marzipan .. most people in the Baltics didn't suffer because of the communism ... only the rich people did ... so stop to exadurate ... if you care so much for human lives then go and complain about the NATO and Israeli's actions. @Bart try to open your mouth against "democracy" or the actions of the western governments ... you'll be portrayed as a fool and if you've got any proof against them .. you might be killed aswell ...

Sarah December 01, 2009, 14:12 quote
+1

Marzipan6 When eastern bloc countries lose their geo-strategic usefulness of the United States, their political and cultural elite will come around and will drop their attempt to link the communism with fascism. Stalin and Stalinists have committed historical atrocities but their greatest crime had been directed against the people of Soviet Union and most of all against the military and political leadership of the Red Army. Russia has acknowledged this. But communists did not shared the racist ideologies of the of the Third Reich. Now, what is your view of the current foreign policies of these eastern European countries such as their support and direct participation of the greatest war of aggression in the 21 century- the U.S invasion and occupation of Iraq?

toma December 01, 2009, 14:15 quote
+1

eh, another BS coming from Poland. Instead of direct russophobia they make it "indirectly". WW2 end´s commemoration will be without hammers and sickles, thats completely ridiculous. And distorting history, which leads to brainwashed masses in the end. One should also hold in mind the numbers of victims were nicely overblown in the West. Today, western propaganda is considered truth in general. If nazism wasnt stopped by "communism", where would poles be today? Oswieczym ? USSR did its wrongs, but Poland was a holy country? Poland´s leaders are doomed to repeat their mistakes again. Then blaming everything on others. Its not that I´m happy about it. Who is going to fail is Hungary as well, in a few months youll see an escalation and a conflict may be underway (is in the making), however, if US falls very soon with its dollar as a reserve, then financing of instability factors will cease. Instead of war in Europe, better be there instability overseas, because thats what is just.

Count Cash December 01, 2009, 14:54 quote
+1

4boby, You say "Polish people hate Russia" and here you hit the nail on the head. But I would modify it a little and say the Polish state hates Russia, just like all the other states in the 'eastern hatred Island' do. Their approach is one of Russophobia, plain and smple. It is a self defence mechanisim, as their state practised a form of communism and were part of the Soviet system. It was their officials that administered it. So now to 'clense' their past, they need an external enemy, someone to blame, what they did on. Russia fits the bill perfectly, even though it is not the Soviet union, and it does not practice communism. I lived through the days of the Soviet Union, through Russia in transition and now Russia coming back. What is talked of the Soviet Union, is pretty well misinformed garbage by the Russophobic writers who 'contribute' here. What is said about communism is also much the same. I do fantastically well now outside of the Soviet policies and Soviet brand of communism. But I also didn't do too badly within it either, and I even see many doing worse now. Therfore I do know the difference between them all through personal experience, unlike many of the'contributors'. But I leave them to their wiki pages and paid wiki pages (sensationalised books) to try to fulfil their clensing mission. The Russophobes just want a propaganda focus, so they pick on communism, ignoring China of course, and ignoring Russia is not communist, or they pick on Soviet symblols, also not realising Russia is not the Soviet Union and not really understanding in detail what life in the Soviet system was like. The reason why they do this, is that they don't have a Russophobic flag to get behind yet, but I am sure they will come up with one soon. They are just hatred filled administartions, using the primitive, invent an external enemy approach to control their populations. But they are small, so irrelevent, as long as they don't carry out too much aggression.

Tom December 01, 2009, 15:48 quote
0

Everyone's problems with the Soviet Union occured during Stalin years. Thats when Estonian deportations took place. That is when they were occupied after having their taste of freedom due to their chance of claiming independence during the Bolshevik revolution. A revolution that was very bloody and with murder of the former royal family and their children. A revolution that destroyed the Orthodox Church. Poland and Russia do have some issues going back centuries. I don't see why the people of the nations can't get along together. Anyways, the Soviet Union was on top of everyone and after the Stalin years people who remained just worked together and the Soviet history is much longer than WWII. And the blood ran like rivers after the collapse of the Soviet Union, make no doubt about that. You have Moldova, Armenia and Azerbaijan, Russia and Chechnya, Abhazia and Georgia, and many other conflicts dotted through the former Soviet Block. America always involves themselves in these regions. Armenia and Azerbaijan they take the side of the Armenia for the Nagorno-Karabakh region... This region was given to Azerbaijan during Stalin years. Now as for Abhaziya and S.Ossetia, they were handed to Georgia by Stalin... Does America have consistency? No! They choose Georgia over the rights of these small states. And all Eastern Europeans run to Daddy(America) To point their finger at Russia for all their problems. Russia apologizes, yet they keep asking for more and more. I agree with many that Stalin and Hitler were 2 very big criminals. But ideology was what Stalin persecuted with no mercy. Hitler persecuted people for who they were. This is far worse, but he lost the war and Stalin purges and ways left its mark on history with more blood. Now of course people use this in political maneuvering. And it is a fact that Nazi sympathizers are growing, not just Baltic, but everywhere. One can look on youtube.

from Poland December 01, 2009, 17:08 quote
0

Poland entered on voluntary terms to Afghanistan - contingent could be pushed back any time. True reason is to build an actual battle experienced new military class (and test some new equipment in the harshest conditions). After sitting ducks for 40 years polish military is still pretty much demoralized and not battle ready in any case. I do not agree with 4boby - as a Pole I do not hate Russians - nor any of my friends I know. There are also no resentments towards them - there is slight distrust but on the goverment level not in social relations. Many Russians work in Poland and I know a few of them. They never had any misfortunes here unlike my friend who was beaten by russian skinheads in Kaliningrad during a trip (he has Tatar origins).

Sarah December 01, 2009, 17:18 quote
+1

Marzipan6 No! I will not throw away my Red Army Songs. I am also happy to see that your most hurtful comment against the Red Army has been allowed to be posted here. Your comment reflects your failure to see the difference between Stalin and Stalinist ruthlessness and the most glorious deeds of young men of the Red Army, who fought and died in WII. May the glorious name of the Red Army remain honoured and remembered until the end of history. Poland was a victim of Stalin but you cannot justified the outrage of the current elite in Poland who are themselves the servant of the greatest imperialists of our times, the United States.I cannot wait to see how Russia will celebrate the 65th anniversary of the Red Army’s victory of fascism!

from Poland December 01, 2009, 21:18 quote
+1

Sorry to keep spamming the same topic but some things must be put straight. I am tired of accusations that Poles are a bunch of Russian eaters. Most people who write that were never in Poland and their perspective is limited to sometimes biased and nonobjective articles. True is that Polish and Russian relationship can be described as "uneasy" - but this applies mostly on the government level. Most Poles have true sympathy for Russians and some don't - it is a normal thing as in any country. Russophobes have some right in fearing Russia, the same as Germanophobes are fearing Germany - Poland was with wars on both (aggressive and defensive), and both are significant economic and military powers - typical for any neighbors that there is someone stronger than You. I can guarantee that polish russophobism is pure nothingness compared to antipolonism in Lithuania - but I can understand that as Poland did horrible things to Lithuanians and I don't blame them. It is nothing special or unique and all nations are target of that. Regarding the communist symbols in Poland - I think RT is the only portal which came to this that seriously. In Poland this paragraph is straightly laughed off and parodied by media endlessly. Does it mean that I have to throw away my collection of Lenin Works (collected in 48 tomes)? If police would put bracelets on every guy with red star cap, then half of Poland would be in jail. This paragraph is a nice move to appease some catholic conservatives but it is completely unpractical (like many different stupid laws - some almost 100 years old, for example - in Poland music in public transports is only restricted to the cabin of the driver - because if the driver would like to play music for the whole bus then he must have first a permission the same as a short range radio station which would cost probably few times more than the bus itself). I wouldn't care less about this law.

Sarah December 02, 2009, 00:23 quote
+1

From Poland, according to you Poland is in Afghanistan to build a new battle tested military caste! First, Poland is to poor and too dependent on foreign aide to under take this costly enterprise. Second, you may wish to consider what happened to Prussian military caste under Hitler!

Waffa Margus December 02, 2009, 02:40 quote
-1

I cant believe in this article they used this kind of language: ...The anti-communist mood is especially strong in the Baltic States, which tend to see the Soviet era as “an occupation”, claiming that the USSR illegally annexed Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia in 1940... WHAT, “an occupation” ??! Is there truly such people who do not understand that it was occupation? Sad to think about this...

from Poland December 02, 2009, 09:04 quote
0

Sarah, Poland is on 20th place in world largest economies (Russia is somewhere between 8th to 10th place depending on the method), has around 1/4th of GDP that Russia has, and around 1/4th of Russian military budget for armed forces - it is enough for such undertaking. Currently Poland does not participate in any program of foreign aid - actually from last Year Poland injected more money into EU than took from it. I have actually nothing against the new military class emerging in Poland - most of them such as gen. Petelicki (forced to retirement) are solid realists, that were against AMD shield (as unrealistic and not enough beneficial), and are pro European-Russian security cooperation (as realistic and beneficial). Currently there are too much politics in polish military that produce too much buzz and not enough effects. Afghanistan is a truly first test for polish military and real battle experienced in harsh conditions is very rare occasion.

Marzipan6 December 02, 2009, 09:54 quote
-1

To CountCash: You know you will be on the right track when you can view the neighborhood's attitudes to Russia not as elaborate institutionally or politically contrived sentiment, but as a simple human reaction to the suffering which Soviet Russia has visited on its neighbors and to contemporary Russia’s dishonesty in dealing with its past. It is because you apparently DID NOT “live through the days of the Soviet Union” but merely read about them from afar, and even this through the writings of propagandists and ideologues, that you have no understanding of the behavior of Soviet Russia vis-à-vis its neighbors, and no understanding of the reason for those countries’ current reaction to Russia. You use the word, “Russophobe” and the word is appropriate, only you don’t realize it because you apparently do not understand the meaning of the word. You think it means something akin to “one who hates Russia,” and you seem to use it pejoratively with that connotation. It actually means “one who fears Russia”. Russia’s behavior of the past and present towards its neighbor has given them much reason to fear it. If one fears, that fear is generally caused by the object of the fear, not by the one who feels the fear. To Tom: Poland’s and the Baltic countries’ problems with Russia predate Stalin by centuries. Because of the actions of Soviet Russia the problems continued after Stalin’s death. And because of the actions of contemporary Russia they still continue after the demise of the Soviet Union. To Sarah: It is hard to disassociate the Red Army from Stalin’s evil, because it was a primary instrument of Stalin’s evil, and will remain so in history until the end of history. To Waffa Margus: You hit the nail on the head. Russia apologists look to everyone and everywhere for a reason for neighboring countries’ problems with Russia and conjure up phantom reasons from their doctrinaire thinking , and never, never see Russia and its policies as the cause.

Count Cash December 02, 2009, 13:32 quote
+1

Lies breed fear, fear breeds hatred in the propagandists hands, until they are intertwined as one, as they are in the eastren hatred island. The Baltics lie, the Polish do too, all to make them look as victims. When they were fully active participants in the political flavour of the day. Unlike those that visited the Soviet Union, I lived in it, every day, I grew up in it everyday. I worked in it everyday So I know the lies of the Baltics and Poland, I know them too well. Russia will never accept those lies!

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