From Lord of the Rings.

“I think that Russian citizens have already assessed Gorbachev’s activities as the leader of the USSR and the essence of his proposals, and I believe that he should be grateful to them for their generosity,”
*****************
A very diplomatic way of saying, "What's this guy smoking? How many lives did he ruin the last time anyone followed his advice?"

a Goyem.

What we have in Naryshkin's reported comments is personal anti-Gorbachev venom and little else. There is absolutely no analysis of Gorbachev's proposal, including no analysis of what may be wrong with it, and zero analysis of whether or not, and to what extent, Russia's present constitution either meets or fails to meet the needs of the Russian state.

The only supposed "analysis" of Gorbachev's proposal is, that when Gorbachev ran a constitutional referendum in the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union collapsed.  Positively awesome! And very Russian.

Marzipan.......One look at the way you Baltic bullies scream hysterically at Juha Molari for freely expressing himself via his commentaries and the cowardly way you cruelly ostracize one of your own athlete daughters,  Donata Rimsaite for marrying a Russian,  tells the world what the caliber of your  bigoted little backwater society is....

Larry, your comment is perfect fit with those of  Naryshkin. You provide zero information about what is right or wrong  with the Russian constitution, zero information about what is right or wrong with Gorbachev's suggested referendum, but you are big on changing the subject entirely and issuing zany insults.  Well done.

Anyone who chooses personal insults in place of reasoned on-topic analysis has lost the argument already. Like Naryshkin. And you.

Larry, if you have an intelligent contribution to make to Juha Molari's arguments, it could be a nice idea if you did this actually in his blog. Meanwhile, I invite interested readers to see my responses to Molari's ideas there. You needn't fear "hysterical screaming" too much, because Larry doesn't post a whole lot there.

I don't know much about Russian constitution, but I just know that Gorbachev is not a credible person. He is bought by West and whatever he says is in American interest not Russians.

Marzipan6,
What do you mean "very Russian analysis" referring to the lack of analysis? Everybody else in the world are doing better than Russians with their "analysis"? Like,... name some of them...

And lets take you "analysis", for example. You have a conclusion -- Naryshkin and Larry are both wrong and "argue without providing information". But, where is your analysis and information? Based on what have you concluded that they are wrong? Because, their view do not pass your "information admission filter"?

the word Blasts?  Do all Russian journalists have a superiority complex?  Whoever took the picture of this crackhead obviously doesn't think too highly  of him.

Whats with Russians and wrote in #10

the word Blasts?  Do all Russian journalists have a superiority complex?  Whoever took the picture of this crackhead obviously doesn't think too highly  of him.

.................................................................

Are you kidding?...That's State Duma speaker's good side, on a good day!

Bogdanov, what I meant by a "very Russian analysis" is this: a sweeping condemnation is issued which is based on no factual evidence at all, but which refers to other, unrelated events, some of them real, some of them distortions of reality and some entirely fictional, and this turgid  hodge-podge is then presented as "reasoning" to justify the beginning sweeping condemnation.

Typically, this kind of sham analysis is presented as an emotion-charged eruption -- something is either "slammed", or "utterly unacceptable", or is "a sacrilege", or perhaps it is "Nazi" or "fascist" or "an attack" of one sort or another, or "bullying", or is described in any number of other nonsense emotional terminology.

Naryshkin does it, Russian officials  and government bodies regularly do it especially in regard to their endless anti-Baltic invective, Russian media outlets do it -- and Larry does it.

In almost every one of my posts I draw attention to this silly phenomenon and detail its verifiable specifics in regard to the matter at hand, as I have also done in my preceding posts here. But apparently because many Russians and Russia apologists prefer sweeping and illogical emotionalism to reason, nothing changes. Not that I expect anything to change. I merely try to help those readers who are not hopelessly trapped in ideological thinking to factually evaluate such offerings.

Bogdanov, my conclusion is not that Naryshkin is wrong; my conclusion is, that he has provided absolutely zero information on the basis of which one can decide whether he is right or wrong, and yet he and/or RT journalists misrepresent those empty mouthings as evidence that somehow back up his allegations. If ever he gives factual evidence for his views, we will then be able to analyse and judge whether or not those views are right.

Exactly the same applies to Larry's post. He likewise says zero about Gorbachev, his proposed referendum or the pros and cons of the Russian constitution. He merely changes the subject and sprays insults.

You give a very passable impression of understanding English, Bogdanov.  Didn't you notice this yourself? Or if not, were my original responses to the article and to Larry in language that was too hard?

Marzipan6: "a sweeping condemnation is issued which is based on no factual evidence at all, but which refers to other, unrelated events, some of them real, some of them distortions of reality and some entirely fictional, and this turgid  hodge-podge is then presented as "reasoning" to justify the beginning sweeping condemnation."

Well said. But, why this is Russian only? That was my question. Couldn't I say exactly the same about recent anti-Putin hysteria conducted by the Western media? In fact, in many fold exceeding this "naive" Russian actions. How about fictions created by the NATO countries related to Iraq? Lybia? Iran? ...

Marzipan6: "Russians and Russia apologists prefer sweeping and illogical emotionalism to reason, nothing changes. Not that I expect anything to change. I merely try to help those readers who are not hopelessly trapped in ideological thinking to factually evaluate such offerings."

This is exactly how I feel about the West. Sometimes I feel that I am hitting the concrete wall all the time. With the only difference -- I do not even try to help anyone, because, those who doesn't ask for help will ignore all your efforts anyway.

Talking about Larry and Gorbachev. I understood what Larry meant. And not because, I wanted to hear insults toward Gorbachev, but, because I know the context of the Larry's short comments very well. Larry on this site for a long time and he was part of the discussions about Gorbachev where all sort of details were considered and "digested". So, he may not address in his post the "rookie" commentators who were just born and joined this site. He was expressing his views in the long ago established contexts...

The same with your posts. You don't have to go through introductions of the topics over and over. You may just speak about something which you started to talk some time ago...

Bogdanov, of course there is all kinds of manipulation of truth in the West as well. Quite frequently lies win out, at least in the short term. Liars in Russia and liars in the West are equally liars. But there are some fundamental differences between the two societies.

The West manipulates politics, but not history. It cannot. Historical research, history teaching, the diversity of universities, the freedom of the press and other media, effective anti-corruption and anti-libel laws, the multiplicity of Western countries, societies and institutions and the degree of transparancy, while not perfect, is collectively so broad that it is impossible to maintain concerted conspiracies. Many attempted Western conspiracies are constantly exposed and redressed, specifically because the West's own institutions  have exposed them. There is next to no equivalent of this in Russia.

Russia's political process isn't just manipulated -- it is criminally rigged. Russia's media, especially television, remains under tight state control. Russia's judicial system is badly compromised and corrupt. The teaching of history is controled by Medvedev's Commission of Historical Truth, or whatever he called it. And unlike the West, Russian society springs from the womb of a paranoid, lies-based, closed, totalitarian regime, with which it has yet to come to terms, and from which it has not yet freed itself emotionally, intelledtually or ethically. I can detail this if needed, but not in this post for reasons of space.

The end-result is the kind of article that is under discussion here, and the astonishing yet entirely predictable reaction of russophiles when the illogicality of their reasoning is pointed out. They invariably change the subject, and invariably offer personal insults to boot.

I am unaware of all of Larry's backround posts to which you refer, Bogdanov. But I am aware that in every post, without exception, where he has engaged my arguments, his responses have been exactly in the outlined mold.

And by the way, Bogdanov, Larry's insults in his post here were not directed at Gorbachev which would at least in some measure have something to do with the topic. His insults were directed at me, at the Baltic countries, and relate to Molari's blog, none of which is even vaguely relevant to the subject. But is, as I have outlined, a very typically Russian outburst.

Marzipan6: "The West manipulates politics, but not history."

Well, you are surely wrong about that. I could, probably, take almost any Western country and find tons of examples how they twist the history in their favor. But, I know about the US only. So, I give you a couple of examples from their history. Ask regular Americans (not historians or people with university degree), if they know that Americans were running concentration camps for Japanese on their territory? Or ask them if they know that the capitalists sunk wheat grains in the ocean (to maintain the high prices for bread) during Great Depression while million Americans were hungry, and so on... And I am not even talking about how everything twisted when it comes to other countries...

You are right, though, that sooner or later the truth comes out. One way or another. In any country. Including Russia. Those, who where curious knew long ago what was happening in the country. And adjusted its course. It would be unfair to say that Russians stuck with their mental development and keep maintaining their evil intentions for centuries...

Marzipan6, Russian political process is in no way different from those practiced in the West. In fact, Russian politicians are just "kids" in comparison with their Western counterparts who mastered their "art" by generations.

Marzipan6, I am not going to argue with you on this topic. I know you pretty well. I see your point and I see those things you never give up upon (though, if you are honest with yourself, you should -- like your unfairly negative view on Russia/Russians in comparison with the West). But, I do not insist and I do not blame you...

Bogdanov, we should be careful not to confuse incompetence with conspiracy. I have generally found the broad American population to be fairly ignorant of history, both of their own and especially that of the world (I've visited America many times and have had many American acquaintances, so my knowledge of this is first-hand). This is the result of  poor education on the part of many people, a parochial and narrow approach in many school curricula, and a big-power chauvinism on the part of the movers and shakers in society. Lump it all under the heading of "incompetence" if you like.

However, there is no conspiracy to distort and misrepresent  history or to claim, for example, that there was NO forced incarceration of Japanese nationals during WW2, or that there was NO destruction of grain to maintain prices. Educated people in the US and elsewhere know that Axis nationals (not just Japanese) were unjustly incarcerated in many Allied countries, because their countries' record of history openly admits this.

This stands in stark contrast with the situation in Russia. Most Russians are not only unaware of colossal Soviet crimes, both personal and national, against the Baltics but believe the very opposite of the truth not because teachers are too lazy to teach or students are too lazy to learn. But because the government from its President on down, and including its institutions, agencies and media, deliberately, cynically and conspiratorially lie about the record of history. Historical evicence that is embraced everywhere else in the world is rejected and contradicted on the basis of ideology, what is not rejected is distorted, and the outcome is, amongst other ludicrous nonsense, that there was no Soviet occupation of the Baltics, but that three sovereign European nations committed serial national suicide, and willingly and legally joined Stalin's Soviet Union, and happily stayed there for 50 years because they loved it so much. 

This assault on history is much more than some kind of incompetence, Bogdanov. It is a deliberate, top-down, official and cynical Russian government conspiracy, mounted in fulfilment of Kremlin policy, and provides a whip with which the Kremlin has lashed the Baltics since June 1940, and which it continues to wield to this day.

America does nothing comparable in regard to any country on earth.

Bogdanov, my view of Russia is not based on a comparison of Russia with the West, but on a comparison of what Russia has done and is doing in regard to the Baltics, and what the West has done and is doing in regard to the Baltics.

Within these parameters, the conclusions that I reach are not unfairly negative. They are quite fairly negative. They are exactly the same conclusions that anyone else reaches who runs a similar comparison.

However, my point is not to compare Russia with the West -- that seems to be your pre-occupation, not mine. My concern is for Russia to begin behaving like a normal country towards the Baltics, like every other country in the world.

Marzipan6,
Comparison of Russia with the West is not my goal. In fact, I wouldn't care about it at all -- I am trying to live by the current moment (living my past behind) and I am on this site just to communicate. But, I am dealing here with a bunch of guys who either misinformed about Russia, its internal life, and its history, or having complex of superiority, thus being blind and deaf. I have to go through the thick layers of the anti-Russian propaganda created "cement", before I can reach a real person and we can talk about current events in a form of dialog and share/discuss/debade the actual information...

My life in the US is not even a bit happier than it was in Russia. Neither it worse, though. It is just different. Some things better, some worse. Some easier, some more difficult. But, still you could be as happy living in Russia as happy you can be living in the US. Therefore, any attempts to present Russia as hell on earth populated with undeveloped creatures, I view as dishonest (softly speaking) or malicious acts with the purpose to degrade Russia and Russians...