Ibamurri: As far as I am aware, no one is interested in reconciling the positions of Communists and anyone else – Communists are welcome to think exactly whatever they want to. Nor, as far as I know, does anyone dispute the fact that colonialism brought more than a little tragedy and suffering to many peoples around the world, especially to Africans. But by and large, former European colonial nations acknowledge the history of colonialism, and though various of the wounds of colonialism remain unhealed, at least there is no added insult heaped upon injury by the West pretending that the evils of colonialism never happened. This contrasts sharply with the attitude that present-day Russia still holds about Soviet colonialism in East Europe. In some cases, it has the temerity to pretend that it didn’t even happen at all – ask the Russian President, and he will tell you with a straight face that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania committed synchronized national suicide by freely, willingly and entirely legitimately joining Stalin’s Soviet Union, and happily staying there for fifty years because they loved it so much. If Russia wants to achieve normal relations with its neighbors, it has to stop that kind of offensiveness. As for the “glorious liberation” of which you tell, let me assure you, Ibamurri, there is not one square meter of ground anywhere on this entire planet from which the Red Army expelled Nazis, where it brought liberty. All that it did was to replace Nazi totalitarian tyranny with Soviet totalitarian tyranny. The Red Army certainly achieved victory. But “victory” and “liberation” are two entirely different things.

Thank you Marzipan6 for your clear and honest comment. Has anyone here today seen the film "Katyn."? For sixty plus years the World was told that the Germans were responsible for the massacre of twenty thousand of Poland's finest men. All the intelligentsia were rounded up and taken to the Forest of Katyn and shot over open graves. The graves have been opened and they men in them have been identified. It was Stalin who did this NOT the Germans at all. Why has this lie been perpetrated on the World for so long? And, did yu know that Auschwitz was a work camp for IG Farben? Who owned IG Farben? It seems it was owned by people like "Poppy" Bush, GW's grandfather - among othere such as the Schiff banking family, the Warburg banking family and others. And they were Jews! In other words, Jews owned and operated Auschwitz it seems. Furthermore, there is a video, actually two videos, made by a young Californian Jew called David Cole. Look into those. He isa good and honoroable man and he makes it very clear that there were no gaz ovens at Auschwitz! None! Not one! IN fact,. there was a post office, a hospital, a theatre, several orchestras, a dentist clinic, a magnificent swimming pool, playing fields where they played football - and even a prison and a brothel. The Russians - led by the terrifying Stalin, The Gerogian Jew whose real name was Djugashvilli, meaning Jewson, who took over all those camps when they drove the Germans out - and it was the Russians, it seems, who have been blalming the Germans for everything.

According to Marzipan6, the media news worldwide are all 'Moscow propaganda', as many of them reported of 'nonexisting' Nazi Waffen-SS parades, rallies, celebrations and memorials in honour of Hitler's Waffen-SS legion. It is understandable that Russians and Jewish community write a lot about it, they are outraged the most at the heroization of Nazi SS troops, being their main victims in WWII. These articles contain related historical data from many sources, fully compatible with historical facts in any reliable history book /source in the East or West. In any case, nobody serious will consult Nazi apologists and SS -worshipers on this matter. History will not be re-written. As for: “you will never see a Nazi parade or ceremony or Nazi symbolism or even goosestepping“ - I would be happy not to see that again in Estonia, we have seen enough of above mentioned. And too many monuments to SS executionaries and Holocaust perpetrators. As for :“read the Estonian press, you will never see or hear Nazism praised or longed for or even excused“, here are a few reports: 02-03-2005 Estonia– 'An Establishment Newspaper is Accused of Inciting to Antisemitism' Article in 'The Kesknadal' newspaper published on 9th February 2005: Estonian SS veteran claimes that the swastika is not a symbol of hatred by rather an ancient religious symbol. 07-09-2004 Estonia – The Publication of a Book Denying the Holocaust: Tiit Madisson, the Mayor of Lihula, has written a book called "The New World Order" which denies that the Holocaust ever happened. 28-11-2002 / Estonia –A number of antisemitic articles denying the Holocaust have recently been published in Estonia. Among them an article in 'Eesti Ekspress', "The Holocaust Under the Magnifying Glass"

To Scorpio, who tells of “news media worldwide” reporting Nazi Waffen-SS parades, rallies and celebrations in Estonia, but who failed to provide even one example of this alleged media abundance. I repeat what I wrote before – there are no Nazi parades, no Nazi rallies or celebrations in Estonia. None. What there is, is some Moscow-minded media hysteria, and this is so strident that in some people’s minds the hysteria itself becomes prime evidence. But the only thing it evidences is Russian attitudes, not Estonia’s. In Russia there are vast parades each year of WW2 veterans, many dressed in Stalin-era regalia, almost all sporting Stalin’s medals, under Red Flags, and troops goose-stepping before the Russian President who takes the salute – yet no one accuses them of celebrating Stalinism. In Estonia there are no equivalent parades, uniforms, medals, flags or goose-stepping – and Russia (of all countries!) accuses Estonia of celebrating Nazism. This is hypocrisy writ large! Nor are there any public monuments in Estonia to “SS executioners and Holocaust perpetrators.” Produce a photograph if you can – you can’t. The best that I think anyone can do is tell of an entirely private statue of a soldier wearing a WW2 German uniform which about half a dozen people set up in a private remote forest block somewhere on their own property – and that’s about it. And even that did not celebrate Nazism, but referred to those who defended Estonia against returning Red terror, and depicted the defender in the uniform he actually wore. Pyjamas would not have seemed appropriate. Because of space limitations on submissions, I will analyse the specific articles Scorpio mentioned in a separate posting.

To Scoprio, Part 2: Scorpio refers to this from the Anti-semitic website CFCA: “The Kesknädal newspaper… has been accused of inciting to antisemitism. In an article published on 9th February 2005, an Estonian SS soldier who had fought on the side of the Nazis against the Soviet Red Army during World War II protested against the decision by the Estonian authorities to remove the monument in the memory of the SS soldiers… He also claimed that the swastika is not a symbol of hatred by rather an ancient religious symbol.” CFCA is a foreign publication, and “Kesknädal” (“Midweek”) is a minor weekly publication in Estonia. The article itself is too old for me to access and analyze. We simply have an accusation by an external source, and its brief summary of the article, but even it tells of Estonian authorities removing a monument, not setting it up. If Nazi sentiment is so rife in Estonia, why must Scorpio search back more than 4 years to find something he imagines is evidence for it? Why not present something from last week, which would be verifiable and analyzable? Scorpio next quote from CFCA, from 5 years ago, is a reference to Tiit Maddison apparently writing a book denying the Holocaust. Maddison is a former Soviet-era dissident and prisoner who, since the end of the Soviet occupation, has made himself somewhat of a thorn in the side of Estonian authorities, as Estonia is apparently not to his liking. His book has no particular popularity. Finally Scorpio quotes CFCA from 7 years ago, regarding an Estonian newspaper analyzing the work of a Swiss Holocaust denier. Again, the original Estonian newspaper article is from too long ago for me to access and read in the original, but even the CFCA reference does not claim that the article took the Holocaust deniers side or agreed with him. Such is Scorpio’s “evidence” of Nazi parades and celebrations in Estonia.

Well, Marzipan, what do you think of the statue in Kosovo of Bill Clinton? And do you enjoy the statue of Bush in Iraq? What the HELL are statues of American presidents doing in those places? Looks like you all traded Stalin for Clinton! Hmm. I read there are 25,000 US forces in Georgia, and billions in military hardwere going in there. What do you think it is for, eh?

Pauline, my thoughts about statues in Iraq or Kosovo are about as warranted as Russian thoughts are about statues in Estonia. And entirely off-topic in a Forum on the victims of Stalinism.

Marzipan6 asks for an “evidence“ of media reports about Nazi SS parades in Estonia. Marzipan6 also doesn't believe that monuments to Nazi SS-soldiers exist in Estonia. I will name just a couple of sources. So, the BREAKING NEWS is: British “Independent“ reports on 7 July 2004: ”Outrage as SS men hold anniversary celebration in Estonia” The article says: “The EU newcomer Estonia was accused of amorality and gross historical insensitivity yesterday after it allowed veterans of the Nazi Waffen-SS to parade through its capital Tallinn.” Which part of this Marzipan6 does not understand? The word “Nazi“, or “parade“? Or Nazi Waffen-SS parade? To refresh Marzipan6's memory, these parades/rallies are held annually in Estonia. The BBC News reports on 20 August 2004: “Estonia unveils Nazi war monument“. Unless the BBC also reports “Moscow propaganda“, the monument is - a NAZI war monument. One of the monuments honoring Hitler's SS legion in Estonia. Only due to the huge pressure from the EU, and the protest from Jewish and humanitarian organizations, Nazi symbols were removed, and the monuments moved to remote areas. But erecting SS monuments was far from “private thing“, even high Estonian officials attended unveiling ceremonies. It is horrifying that the only concern here is not to expose the shameful SS monuments in the public, and let the tourists take pictures of the last Nazis in Europe.

To Scorpio Part 3: The best commentary on Scorpio’s other more than 5 years old BBC article is to quote it in full, which Scorpio did not do. It states, “An Estonian town has unveiled a controversial monument to honor those who fought with Nazi forces against the Soviet Union in World War II. The monument depicts an Estonian soldier in German military uniform. “The local authorities in the western town of Lihula said they wanted to honor those Estonians who had to choose between the two sides. But the Estonian Prime Minister, Juhan Parts, described the monument as a provocation. An investigation is underway into whether it could incite political hostilities. “About 2,000 people attended the unveiling ceremony on Friday. ‘This monument is for people who had to choose between two evils, and they chose the less evil one,’ Tiit Madisson, the governor of the Lihula parish, was quoted as saying by AFP news agency. ‘They had already experience of the Soviet occupation, and they didn't want it to come back,’ he added. “A plaque on the monument reads: ‘To Estonian men who fought in 1940-1945 against Bolshevism and for the restoration of Estonian independence.’ Correspondents say no official protest had been received from Russia, which was widely expected to condemn the monument.” As for my own comments, although Estonia has every right to have maintained that monument, the government decided to remove it to avoid unnecessary provocation to those foreigners who choose not to understand that one did not need to be a Nazi to try to protect oneself and one’s loved ones from being imprisoned, raped, deported and murdered by Soviets. Having commented on Scorpio’s offerings, I repeat: there are no Nazi parades, Nazi Monuments of Nazi celebrations in Estonia. Just as, presumably, there are no Stalinist celebrations in Moscow.

To Scorpio, Part 2: Scoprio’s 5 year-old article, “Outrage as SS Men Hold Anniversary Celebration in Estonia” begins, “The EU newcomer Estonia was accused of amorality and gross historical insensitivity yesterday as it allowed veterans of the Nazi Waffen-SS to parade through its capital Tallinn.” The accuser was Yevgeny Satanovsky, President of the Russian Jewish Congress. If that one parade was a celebration of Nazism, then the yearly May parade in Moscow is a celebration of Stalinism. Parading Russians either fought in, or remember those who fought in, Stalin’s Red Army. Yet they are not there to celebrate Stalinism; they are there to honor those who fought bravely against a horrific invader of Russia. The same in Estonia. The sacrifice of people who fought against a horrific invader of Estonia were honored. In this case, the invader was Soviet Russia. That they fought in German uniform was because Russia itself, in its first occupation 4 years earlier, in the midst of its murder and enslavement of thousands of Estonian civilians also found time to dismantle the Estonian army. From then on, Estonians were unable to fight in their own military. As for the Waffen-SS, Estonians were faced with either greeting their Soviet tormentors and killers with flowers, or fighting them within units that existing German occupiers assigned them. Yet even so, the Waffen-SS, which were front-line troops, needs to be distinguished from the regular SS, which were Hitler’s internal security thugs. Here’s part of what the on-line Jewish Virtual Library says: “Towards the end of 1943, it became apparent that numbers of volunteer recruits were inadequate to meet the needs of the German military, so conscription was introduced. The Estonian 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) is an example of such a conscript formation, which proved to be outstanding soldiers with an unblemished record.” I wonder has Yevgeny Satanovsky read that?

To Scorpio, Part 1: Scorpo’s breathless “BREAKING NEWS” is over 5 years old. If there are Nazi parades in Estonia around every corner, which is the impression one gets from Russian accusations, why doesn’t he bring two or three events to our attention from last week or last month, complete with pictures? There is no shortage of pictures of troops and veterans in Stalin-era uniforms, wearing Stalin-era medals, goose-stepping under Stalin-era red flags before the President of Russia, who takes their salute. Where is the Estonian Nazi-oriented equivalent? No one can find it, not even Scorpio. And yet he, and Russia, accuse Estonia of glorifying Nazism. Estonia does not accuse Russia of glorifying Stalinism each year. I will comment on each of the two articles Scorpio refers to. Because of limitations of space imposed by RT, I will need to divide my post into three parts.