“We have issues to do with history: we don’t accept Stalinist historical views and we need to overcome them,” Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski said in an interview with RT.
View full story
To Alex: You are right, I shouldn’t be telling you where you sourced some or another news item from – it’s your news, and it is for you to tell us where you heard it. But wherever you may have sourced that particular “news” from, I am in a position to tell you that it is false. Nazism is not glorified in Estonia and there are no “Nazi parades” there.
I have heard of one or two (literally one or two) right wing extremists there who occasionally put their head in public and say ridiculous things, and there may well be one or two (literally) others whom I have not heard of, who do the same. Although this isn’t clear in my memory any more, I believe I also once heard of a private gathering on someone’s farm of perhaps 10 or 11 such people. But these people are considered as sad clowns by the Estonian public, and there is no sympathy for their views. There is also a small and isolated “punk” youth subculture in Estonia, which is the merest microcosm of their large and very visible counterpart in Russia. But on either side of the border, I don’t think any of them have much idea of what real Nazis were, and would probably be horrified if ever they learned. And that’s about it as far Estonia and Nazism goes. I repeat, there are no public monuments to Nazism in Estonia and no parades or rallies glorifying Nazism. And most importantly of all, no sympathies for that sort of mutant politics.
Also, let me assure you that Yeltsin has not apologised to Estonia about Soviet Russian crimes there. No Russian leader ever has. In view of the monumental nature of that criminality and the profound pain, injury and loss which it caused to the Estonian nation and to almost every Estonian family, an apology is important to provide confidence that Russia takes responsibility of its past, and is serious about ensuring that nothing similar will ever happen again. This is necessary for trust and respect to be restored.
@marzipan ...about the parades ... i grew up in west-europe .. so i didn't had a russian tv .. or radio .. in fact i didn't event had russian friends for 16 years.. cause there weren't any russians around me .. so i coudn't have been exposed to russian propaganda .. the sources of information that i've been using are non russian. In fact RT is the first russian source that i've found.
Anyway i've read ones ( on polish .. or estonian news blog .. yes... they were translated ) that Jeltzin had already apologized to the Baltics and Poles.
But it seems that they want an apology from every new president ... every year ...
Poland has indeed found dialogue with Russia, showing dialogue is possible to establish, if you simply stop shouting and antagonising. If one party can find dialogue with a person, whilst another cannot, then it shows that the one who cannot is the one at fault, or has some more negative characteristics. They may lack the skills and maturity required of modern diplomacy, or have hurt the other party very much. It is a simple fact really. Poland has the maturity to succeed, but it also does have the advantage that it didn't fight with the Nazis as other countries did, it doesn't erect Nazi glorifying monuments, it doesn't parade today as Nazis, and it wasn't seen as the most efficient place for killing jews, because of the enthusiastic willingness of the local poulation of other countries. Well done Poland, a country with diplomatic sense in the modern world.
To CountCash: First, I don’t know of anyone who is erecting any monuments glorifying Nazis. Russia and its apologists talk endlessly about such supposed monuments, but hardly ever give any specific examples. On the rare occasions that they attempt to, an examination of the monument in question clearly shows it is not Nazi monument and does not celebrate anything Nazi. However, propaganda hysteria sometimes seems to take on a life of its own, and offensively ignorant and baseless comments about “Nazi monuments” continue.
Secondl y, CountCash refers to dialogue, apparently with Russia. It takes two to dialogue; a monologue can be provided by just one. The reality is that Russia does not seek a genuine exchange of opinions; it rather seeks to impose its own viewpoints on others, and gets mightily annoyed when this does not work. At that point it does no more talking, only shouting. Remember its performance in regard to the Estonian Bronze Soldier affair of two years ago? This proclivity of Russia’s did not begin yesterday. Russia has a centuries’ long history and tradition of totalitarianism, where alternate views were not only not tolerated, but murderously suppressed.
To Alex: Indeed the incidence of anti-Semitism in pre-War Poland was grim. I don’t think that anyone, including Poles, have denied this. It is now the turn of Russians to acknowledge their Soviet-era crimes.
Regarding Baltic “Nazi veterans parades,” you have sourced this slant from Russian propaganda. The following true: (1) Totalitarianism in all its forms, whether of the right or left, was and is odious to Estonia and its Baltic neighbours. (2) The Baltics were occupied by the Nazis, but were not Nazis and did not have Nazi sympathies. (3) Because Soviet Russia savaged them so murderously in 1940-41, when the Red Army was on its way back towards the end of the War many Baltic men fought against their returning in the only effective way that they could, namely, within the German military. (5) Baltic people celebrate those who gave their lives to try to save them from the Soviet horror – after all, for 50 years they were unable to say “thank you” to them. They do not celebrate Naziism. (9) When Russia characterises these as “Nazi parades” it offers a gross and offensive insult to the Baltic people.
Russian aggression against Finland likewise drove Finns to fight the Red Army alongside Germans. This does not mean that Finns were Nazis.It is interesting to note that Russia never criticizes Finland for commemorating their WW2 veterans, despite the fact that Finland was an official ally of Nazi Germany. Russian understands that it was its own own aggression that drove Finland into a German alliance,and that Finns were not Nazis. Unlike Finland, Baltic countries weren’t even allies of Germany, but occupied peoples who not only had no national governmentor policies at the time.Yet Russia constantly smears them as “Nazis.”. Unlike with Finland, Moscow has an interest in discrediting the Baltics to divert attention from its own crimes of occupation there.
What is so reasuring is that so many people can spot the propoganda easily. That is the absolute beauty of the internet, free expression and free thought, based on free research. It is a privilege to see on this subject. This is the insurance against a return of the Nazis. I am impressed.
Also what is good to see is countries, like Poland and Russia engaging in dialogue to try to solve differences, it is the correct diplomatic approach, it speaks volumes for the mature way to go about things. Think, in real life, if you wanted a dialogue with someone, where the relationship is a bit strained and you wanted to resolve something delicate, would you a) Knowing they had millions and millions killed by the Nazis, erect a monument in glory of the Nazis, or would you b) Either try to avoid the issue or acknowledge that a Nazi past is unacceptable to potray in any positive way whatsoever. Choice (a) has been the approach taken by other countries, and lets be honest, to any sane person, it just is not going to work. You may have a strained relationship before, but now you have got a diplomatic war. Stupid yes, irresponsible yes! So again a pat on the back for Poland and Russia, going the right way about things!
Our history of the planet has many records of the evil that men do,the question is, has the human race learnt anything,probably not,And what about the main factor which create situations,ie Like inequalities ,and the devious broadcasters that pander to ignorance and uneducation,do you hear any controvsey.about ignorance and uneducation,who controls the garbage that the broadcasters and media they bombard society with.any answers.?
@marzipan ... it's funny to see how you're jumping from one thing to another avoiding curtain things. Your president is apologizing every year and lying some flowers .. lol ... but there also nazi veterans parades lol . And why are you avoiding poles .. they've done some gruesome things too before the 1939.
Marzipan6- Twice Told Tales, Thrice Told Tales….Propaganda can be very boring, you know!
Alex is eager to read of the “dark history” of the Baltics. Estonia is first mentioned in history in the 1st Century AD by the Roman historian Tacitus. From that time until now, there is no record in any history of pogroms conducted by Estonians in the country against anyone. Under German occupation when the country had no government of its own, a very few Estonians did participate in German war crimes. Although this was never the expression of any policy of Estonia, nonetheless Estonia has apologised many times for this.
Estonia observes an annual Holocaust Day in which the President traditionally lays a wreath at a memorial to Holocaust victims. Something similar also happens in Latvia and Lithuania. But where in Russia is the monument to the thousands upon thousands of Baltic victims of Soviet Russia? Which Russian President has ever laid flowers there? Which has ever even offered simple condolences to the Baltics on their annual day of mourning day of June 14? In that one 24-hour period in 1941, Soviet Russians deported around 30,000 innocent Baltic civilians to Siberian slavery in cattle wagons. Many more than that were also deported after 1945, and most never returned.
@marzipan .. the polls are highly unreliable ... there are probably people from abroad voting ... people like yourself .
And by the way Poles and the other baltic countries are not innocent eather .. why not bring up their dark hystory aswell .
To JohnX – the answer to your question remains exactly the same as I have offered on numerous other occasions to exactly the same question.
By posting your comment, you agree to abide by our Posting rules
Log in to comment in full, or comment anonymously under character-limit restriction.
To complete a registration check
A password has been sent to your email address
Retype new password
We believe US media are controlled by single unit - Ahmadinejad
Lessons that Lenin will (probably) never teach America
Polish president gives the green light to US troops’ deployment in Poland
Russia demands “action, not words” over NATO, US anti-missile system
Munich 2010: lessons learned, lessons forgotten
Russia’s new military doctrine approved
ROAR: Missiles in Romania “may influence Russia-US reset”
Patriot Games: Poland playing on Russia’s nerves over missiles
“EU is a federal decentralized structure”
“America lives in a fascist state” – Gerald Celente
© Autonomous Nonprofit Organization “TV-Novosti”, 2005–2013. All rights reserved.